Marketing in the Madness

Breaking Traditional The Mould of Success: Advocating Women in Leadership

• Street Agency, Katie Street, Jessica Williams • Episode 58

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Jessica:

There's already so many challenges we face being a female. You add introversion to that, and it does add another level of complexity. When I did start to manage a team and I started to understand what leadership was, all of the strengths you suddenly realized, hang on, this is a benefit for me. You

Katie:

think things do a lot more, and you don't necessarily just pluck stuff out. So actually, if you do get to a place where you can have the confidence to speak up, what you're going to say is probably going to be a lot more

Jessica:

powerful. Introversy for me, is all about where you get your energy from, and it's also about how you like to interact with people. Speaking up for someone else. I have no problem doing, speaking up for myself, absolutely not. I'll write you a strongly worded letter.

Katie:

Stand up. Stand out, is what I say to all of the women that I mentor, celebrating those wins, telling people about them. Because if you don't tell anyone, no one's going to know. Master

Jessica:

how you communicate. If you can create a champion, a mentor, and connect with your line manager. That's your trio. How

Katie:

do you build a culture that empowers everyone to do their best work? Being open, honest and sharing the realities is really helpful.

Jessica:

Culture is creating opportunities where everyone feels comfortable enough to share their opinions. If you put as much time and energy and investment into your people as much as your product, you're gonna have a great impact.

Katie:

Hi guys, and welcome to another episode of marketing in the madness now today is, well, one of my favorite episodes, because we're gonna be focusing in on the female leadership content that I create in conjunction with madfest for the female leaders club. And today I have with me my client and yeah, now, now, friend Jess, before we get into everything that we're going to cover today, which is going to be really interesting, guys we're going to be talking about, well, I think as women, there are a lot more of us that are introverted. No, not me, necessarily, but what that means for us women when it comes to business, and Jess is, well, joint managing director of an agency called bright blue day. So tell us a bit more about and I know also because Jess is an introvert, hence she's talking about this. Tell us about your journey. That's always a great place to start. Well, you

Jessica:

say that you started with Tell me about yourself to an introvert, which is my worst nightmare, but I will try and share a little bit of my journey. So I think we're it started for me was leaving Wales. So I grew up in Wales on Europe's largest housing estate. So there wasn't a lot of options or opportunities. So I was brought up being told, get out of Wales. Get out of Wales. Go start your life, make something for yourself. So trundled off in my car until I hit the coast and arrived at Bournemouth. And obviously I wanted to do marketing and be in the creative space which Bournemouth University was known for. And I came to one of the open days, and remember vividly walking into a little Porter cabin at the time, because it wasn't the great beast it is now. And all I can describe you're in this hot, kind of sweaty Porter cabin with your parents. You know, all these other young kids looking a little wide eyed, and in walked Bournemouth. Answer to Anna winter is what I would say, No. And she was the head of marketing, or the lecturer at the time. Elspeth, apologies can last name. And she walked in and spoke for about an hour saying, this probably isn't for you. We're not just going to make ads. This isn't just creative. This is business. This is hard. This is and scared everyone. And we walked out of the port cabin, and my parents looked to me, and they like, oh, sorry about that. It's obviously not for us. Let's go somewhere else. And I was like, I love it. I'm in. I want to start tomorrow. And I think that was especially when we talk about women. I remember here vividly, just being no nonsense, no fluff. And it just really inspired me, because I think I was in a lot of that, and I could start to see the roadmap for myself, and I could start to see someone who was very capable and just very businesslike and very professional, but very inspiring. So went through uni, left university, started at a local agency. Loved it. Agencies, you know, pool table, drinks, trolleys, creative environment, lots of fun, lots of pub visits, and then got made redundant. And, you know, you've left university, you've got all that debt, thought your whole life is ahead of you, and all of a sudden you can't afford your rent and things like that. And that was a difficult time for me, and I say that because when I then started up right with day as an account executive, you know, kind of now 1415, years ago, it meant I went in there and I wanted to keep that job. I was like, I need this job. I need to be good at this job, which pushed me probably more out of my comfort zone to make myself visible and valued. I saw. Everything as an opportunity, every email you sent, every call I was on, every meeting I had, I thought, I have to make the most of this so that did this come around again. I need to be valued. I need to be integral to what they're doing. And I think that experience probably pushed me more as an introvert than I would have been if I hadn't have had that rough start. Then, to be honest, I got very lucky. Bright blue day was a great place to work. It had great leaders who were very accommodating, very welcoming. I got given great accounts. I met my now business partner, who was my account director, and we took over a little portion of our world and had a lot of control of it, and a lot of fun of it, and then I got given a small team, and that's where it all escalated for me. That second I got given people to manage, was the game changing moment that I think from then on the path just kind of spun out of control. And I look back now and go, How did I end up here? Yeah. How has this happened? So cool. There it is. I try not to think about it, because I was probably never ambitious, which is sometimes an awful thing to say, and you're not meant to, especially as I think, a woman, sometimes you feel like you've got to look like you're ambitious and you want it. I was resistant every step of the way, because I didn't want the power. I wasn't interested in that. I wanted a good job, you know, I wanted to pay the bills. I wanted to enjoy myself. But then when people got involved, and when I had people I was responsible for, that's when it got serious for me, and that's when I thought, okay, I might not want the power, but I'll have the responsibility. And I actually enjoyed that, so I stuck with it, yeah,

Katie:

and today, I mean, just to position like bright blue day. So then what your 5060? Ish people?

Jessica:

We Yeah, we're about 50 people, yeah. We are. We work internationally. We work a lot in America. We have been around for 6362 63 odd years, and I have been part of that leadership team for probably kind of six, seven years now, which is a huge responsibility when you have that legacy. Yeah, you know, we're so grateful, but it means don't mess this up. It's been around for a while, yeah. And we, yeah, we're a creative integrated agency, which can be a little bit of a dirty word in marketing, but it means we try and do everything, and do everything, and we try and do everything well, and we have a lot of fun doing it. And

Katie:

you and Lawrence did a management buyout. So that's super interesting, because we were talking earlier about how so many agencies are in it, you know, to sell, and you're not necessarily even thinking of it like that, but you bought from the previous owners. So yeah, talk to me a little bit about that journey. Yeah. So

Jessica:

we the opportunity came along, I can't say we were really thinking about it. And the guys wanted to step out, David Ford and Jonathan Clark wanted to step out. And they gave us the opportunity, which was unfathomable to me, because growing up, I thought you had to have a lot of money to buy something from money, and that was the only way you would do it. I'd never even heard of this type of thing, and it's not really talked about that often in agency land, people talk about selling to networks, but not management buyouts. And we started that process very naively. It was a five year plan, and it was a really hard plan. It was, you know, we had to make money to give that money away, but keep everything going and operating, especially and that amongst even today's agency climate, and we had a small team of us that took that on. And I am so grateful for that opportunity that I think that motivates me. I'd love to do that again for the next generation to give our superstars and our people who commit so much of themselves to our agency and to a success, that opportunity to own it one day. Because I think for a lot of us, it never occurs to us that's we see progression and we see titles. We don't think ownership, yeah, and I think the more we could do that, because the essence of who we are is our people. So if you sell it over there, and you change that, I don't know what becomes of it, and that would worry me with that legacy.

Katie:

Yeah, I think that that's what's the really beautiful part of the bright blue day story is that it's always stayed independently owned. And you don't like say you want to be able to give that back. And I agree, we don't talk about it enough management buyouts like, how that even works? Do you need a loan? Do you need but no, it's basically the profit from the business pays back directly to the previous owners, and then five years, or however long

Jessica:

it's yours. Yeah, it's incredible, which is amazing. Yeah. I

Katie:

mean, it doesn't mean you give away all

Jessica:

your profits. It really does, and that's hard for a long time. But when you've got that goal at the end, are you at the end of that journey now we are done? Yeah, was it last year we're in one year out? I think so. And it's ironic, because you've been doing it so long, nothing then really changes. Yeah, it's a bit like, oh, it's ours, but you've been managing it for five years, yeah, but to know that, and then to start to make plans for what we can do. Bit is really exciting. The responsibility of getting to the end of the management buyout was one pressure. Now is the responsibility of going So, what are we doing? What is the goal? What is the ambition? Because if you don't have that big, I want to scale to this, you know, size at the end or make this much money, you've got to motivate yourself in very different ways, yeah, and it actually brings it more into culture and the people again, it makes it true, kind of leadership of an agency, rather than creating a product, which I love. Yeah,

Katie:

I think you guys have done amazing. It's just, and it's been, you know, an amazing journey to to watch. Obviously, I've also lived in Bournemouth and worked at lots of agencies locally. I say lots. I now have my own. But, you know, it's been an amazing journey to see, and I think one that's always been beautifully respected. You guys have stayed really stable and not maybe had some of the ups and downs that other agencies see. So there's a lot, a lot to be proud of. Now I feel kind of awkwardly like I shouldn't be asking this question, because you do not come across as introverted by the way you speak so beautifully and so confidently. So tell me what you think it's meant for you, as in, like, you know, as someone that is not extroverted more introverted. Do you think that's held you back? Like, talk to me about being an introvert in, you know, throughout all of everything that you've experienced,

Jessica:

yeah. So I think being a female introvert. So I think when we talk about being a female anyway, you think of the challenges that come with that in the workplace. You know, unconscious bias, lack of role models, balancing of work life and family, lack of access to high visibility project. You know, there's already so many challenges we face being a female. You add introversy onto that, and it does add another level of complexity. And I have to say, I think something like half of UK women identify as introvert Yeah. So it's not surprising when you hear the statistics that something like a third of women feel unseen and unheard in the workplace, when you combine those two things, because introversy is unique to everyone. I will say this is all my version of introversy, and I wouldn't dare assume for others. But introversy, for me, is all about where you get your energy from, and you usually get your energy from being alone, being with your thoughts, thinking deeply, thinking things through. You like to think before you speak, you like to watch before you practice, and it's also about how you like to interact with other people. And a lot of introverts don't enjoy big groups, but they do enjoy one to one. So I think it's important to understand we see a lot of limitations with introversy, but actually there's a lot of things. Being an introverted leader has its benefits to the things as I mentioned, the being able to have deeply informed decision making. We tend to be a lot more inclusive in how we work, because we tend to be more socially aware. We might not like social environments, but we tend to be more socially aware, so we are usually better at creating collaboration. We make deeper connections when we do make it so our one to one relationships tend to be a lot stronger, potentially than than with the masses. And I think there are so many great things for it. But in the beginning, for me, it was a challenge. I when I was an account manager, I would go to visa, one of our top clients at the time, and I'd be in these big rooms with these amazing people and great conversations happening, and I'd be sitting next to my account director at the time, and I'd be thinking so many things, and I'd have ideas and opinions, and I was so excited, but I'd be writing them down on a post it note and sliding it across, because I did not want to say them. I was comfortable with that. I didn't feel at the time. It was holding me back. I was happy to participate. I just had no inclination to have my voice heard. And I think that came from as an introvert. If you're not 100% confident in what you're going to say or if you feel but I haven't practiced it. I haven't I don't have the right to say it. We tend to sit back a little bit, but we still have all of the thoughts. And I think it's something about, isn't it, the loudest people have the quietest people have the loudest minds. And I think that's definitely true of an introvert. So in the beginning, it was hard, especially the talking and participating for me, but later on, when I did start to manage a team, and I started to understand what leadership was. All of the strengths you suddenly realize, hang on, this is a benefit for me, having those things, being able to understand other people, having emotional intelligence, being a little slower and more considered with how I approach things, works really well as a leader. So I think it's something to overcome. But when you get to a sweet spot, it's something that I now wouldn't want it any other way, because I think it's helped me in my leadership skills. Oh, I

Katie:

love that. I think, I think the the key is, you don't you think things do a lot more, and you don't necessarily just pull out stuff out. So actually, if you do get to a place where. You can have the confidence to speak up. I think you know what you're going to say is probably going to be a lot more powerful, a lot more thought through, a lot more, you know, strategically put together, than maybe someone that's extroverted and super confident in everything that they think that might just be throwing things out there. So I think it's about, I mean, how? How did you get to a point where, because you're assuming, in order to get to the position that you're at in now, you did have to speak up quite a bit how, how did you get there? What did you how did you push yourself to start doing that?

Jessica:

I got really comfortable with being uncomfortable. I think that was the key for me. I think you have to take a step back and go, What is a true limitation and what's a weakness? Yes, and I think I realized, okay, I don't like to do it, but I have to do it. And I think acknowledging that was really important, creating a set of targets and pushing myself, I will say most of the time, because it was about talking practice, practice, I think we underestimate. Some people can just walk into a room and make it happen. Other people need practice sessions, or need smaller, one to one groups. There are so many things that when you don't see it as a fader complete, that's not I have that weakness. I can't do anything about it. You go, right? I have that weakness. How can I slightly pivot around it, and how can I therefore change my environment to match that? But mostly, to be honest, it was the responsibility I had for the people. And I don't want to say as if I was fighting the injustice, but the more I saw things going on with teams and people, I wanted to speak up for them, speaking up for someone else. I have no problem doing speaking up for myself. Absolutely not. I'll write you a strongly worded letter, but if it involves someone else, I'll always speak up. And I think that's, again, the interesting thing when you're a leader, that it's quite empowering and freeing for an introvert, because it's not about me, it's not about making myself look good, it's about making other people feel good, yeah, and I can do

Katie:

that, yeah. I think that's an interesting, well, one. When you know that you're doing it like you say, it does feel easier, doesn't it? If you know you're doing it for someone else that I'm not showing off, it's not about me, about me. It does feel easier. But I think the thing that you raised there that if you don't speak up and you don't have the confidence to put yourself out there and go through that practice. Then you know, if you're not there, you're not going to be heard like you're it is going to be really hard for you to get ahead in your career if you don't start to speak up. It's one of the I run a mentoring program with eon next, and it's one of the key things like your stand up to stand out, is what I say to all of the women that I mentor as part of my, you know, as part of my group, it's about it, and a lot of them are in the tech team. They are a bit more introverted. They're, you know, it doesn't come naturally to them, but if they don't do it, they're not going to get noticed. And they're brilliant. And you think that's, that's the hardest thing, I think, as you're going through your career, I've always been quite outspoken, and I'm sure I've probably said things that are not, you know, sometimes not great, but I have always spoken up and aired my ideas and put myself forward. And I do think that's probably one of the biggest things that I've done in my career, because if I don't, if I'm not there, I'm not going to get seen, whether that's internally, within a business or externally out of out of the business, with the podcast and everything else, like, I think we forget, and especially if you're introverted, getting working out a way that you can do that is so, so important,

Jessica:

I think exactly that you have to figure it out. You can't just say, I can't, because businesses can't accommodate that. Agencies can't accommodate that. I think you need to find a way to powerfully communicate your ideas and opinion. That does not mean shouting. That doesn't mean you have to be the loudest, but you have to figure out, what does that look like for you? So for me, I'm very comfortable giving presentations. You know, again, a misconception. I like giving presentations because they're structured and I've thought about it and I've prepared. So I use that tool more. I wouldn't have a free flowing meeting to share my opinions, because I know the second other people start talking, I shut down. But give me the stage, I'm a lot better written communication, huge thing for introverts. Yeah, so you can still find ways to communicate. Get your ideas out there, get here. It doesn't have to be in competition with a load of voices in the room, but you have to find a way that works for you, because that is how you get seen and valued. Unfortunately, just doing your job isn't enough. You have to have impact with it, and to have impact with it, you have to communicate and deal with other people. Yeah,

Katie:

I think that's such a good point. It doesn't, don't have to always. I mean, I do think it's great if you can. You don't always have to present, you don't always have to talk some of the tips that I've given my mentees is, even if it's just sharing, you know, the things that you've achieved that week, and sharing that publicly in a platform, like writing it, like celebrating those wins, telling people about them, because if you don't tell anyone, no one's going to know. It's like you have to. There's a there's a really interesting lady. Be worth a follow, actually, on Instagram called Stephanie, who runs fuck being humble. Have you heard of it? And she basically says that it's like you've got to get you've got to get used to big yourself up and putting yourself out there and celebrating the wins and the things that you do. Because if you don't, no one else is going to

Jessica:

unfortunately, yes, you have to. And like you say, even just giving updates, it doesn't all have to have fanfare around it doesn't have to feel like you're celebrating yourself. It's celebrate the work. And I think that's as an introvert, I find that easier if I go I'm talking about the work, not that I did it. Talk about the work, yeah, talk about the project. Talk about zoom, talk about the results. Because you do need to share that stuff, and it doesn't have to center around you. But if you're the one that communicates it, that's important, and you get seen for that.

Katie:

So obviously, you're now part of a partnership. There's two of you. Lawrence, who's also been on the podcast, is is not quite the introvert. So how does that? Because it feels like not that you wouldn't get on because you're both lovely, but like you know, when two there are two quite different personalities, and he is a man, and there are probably more extroverted men than there are women. How? How does that work in business?

Jessica:

Whenever I think of the balance of extrovert and introvert, I'm always reminded of a terribly cheesy quote. So forgive me, but it is that extroverts sparkle and introverts glow. But then I always think, well, they can both set fire to something, and for me, it's because I think having a shared end goal is really important. If you're heading to the same place, how you get there and how you your characteristics and your traits matters less because you're trying to share the same purpose, but it's also important that you stand side by side. And I say that because I think there is a tendency, or especially for myself, to step behind an extra bit, because I'm like, great. You want to talk, you want to go to the event. Fantastic. Let me know how it goes. And that's worked well for us and myself and Lawrence, he's got to do all the things he's loved, and I've got to kind of do all the things I've loved, but you can limit yourself with that, and that's really important, that if you do find a great balance with an extrovert, don't forget you've still got to challenge yourself. You've still got to make yourself visible, and to do that as well. I've also discovered little things, like, don't always go on calls with him. If I go on a call with him, he will talk and I won't. It's just the nature and I'm happy with that, but that's not helping me get seen and helping me get here. So I think use them where you want to, but be careful of not stepping behind their curtain and into their shadow. And in the same vein, I also think the most dangerous thing you can do as an introvert is compare yourself to an extrovert, and that took me a long time to realize. I spent so many years looking at him and other people in positions of power like him, going, why aren't I doing that? Why aren't I walking into that room and talking to everyone? Why aren't I loving it? Why aren't I and for a while, I tried and obviously fade and failed miserably because I wasn't doing it in my way. I wasn't being authentic to me. There's always I remember that we used to travel up to London a lot, and we used to go into these big meetings, and he would nap on the train. I'm there, like no, it's thinking he's napping. He naps. Walks into a meeting, lights up the room, loves it. And I just, how can you do that? How can you do that? It took me years to realize and for him to confess. He's closed his eyes and he's thinking about it. Yeah, he's still thinking about it. He's still preparing in his own little way. And again, a misconception of extroverts, because you go, we all have to prepare. Most of us have to prepare most people. We just go about it differently. And again, the stronger our relationship grew, and that we could be honest with each other in terms of how we prepare and how we need to operate and how we get to where we're both comfortable was really important. And I think a lot of the time, if you have leaders that aren't vulnerable, you don't see that. You see the perfect that leaders great. They know everything they're happy with everything, they're confident everything. It makes it so unattainable. This is a leader that goes, actually, I don't like doing that, but and I struggle with this, and I'm not sure that went well, suddenly more relatable. And you go, Okay, this could be something I can do. So I think we definitely need extroverts and introverts, and we definitely need men and women. It's just side by side. No one should be stepping in front or behind the other one. I

Katie:

think you make a really interesting point there as well, that we need to share more. Because I think you our perception of everything is one thing, but because that's our what we think and what the reality is is often two very different things. So actually having those conversations and you being open enough to say, Yeah, I'm an introvert like this is these have been the challenges that I've faced, and this is how I've managed to overcome them, to get me to the position now where I own and run a really big, wonderful, successful business. I think that's. So that's we need more of that, because I think otherwise, people are just sat there. And I think that's what's great about the world today and podcasts and the content creation, but we all need whether you're an introvert or an extrovert, I think being open, honest and sharing the realities is really helpful. Yeah, and

Jessica:

it's so hard. I think vulnerability is still a word that makes a lot of people nervous, because it's associated with weakness, rather than things you're trying to still progress in. Combine that with social media, which can still be a little bit like my life's great. I'm doing great. Everything's great. You know, we all want to present our successes, whereas when you do start to see the stories, and it's why I do try to share it more so than even I'm comfortable with because it's so important. It's so important to show people how you got there, and to show them that it was hard, oh yeah, and to show them that I don't have it all. You know, it's not, I don't have everything together, and not every part of my life is perfect, and there are still things I'm struggling with, because it's how you start a conversation at a level they can understand. You know, it's just if, if I feel like I'm never going to get there, if I feel like you're perfection, I won't even try, yeah, if I feel like you're slightly flawed, then I go, Oh, me too. What can we do about that? Then let's start a conversation about that. And I think that's really what it is, is starting conversations that are a lot more meaningful about working styles and how people want to work. And I think we talk a lot these days about culture, and we've moved on a long way. I mean, a couple of years ago, it was just as long as you went to the pub on a Friday and bought people pizza every now and then, culture was done. I think we've come on a long way from that in a lot of the industry and marketing and agencies, but I still think there's more to do in the sense of culture is creating opportunities where everyone feels comfortable enough to share their opinions and thoughts. And something we do at BBD is we have a group called the voice of and we started a few years ago, and it's basically a group of people who are either really new to private a or some of our youngest members. And we give them complete autonomy to gather and talk about what's working well, what's not working well, what don't we like? What do we want to give feedback on? And then we give them slots in our kind of monthly updates where they can share that. And we don't vet it. We don't check it beforehand. We're not kind of feeding them information. We give them presentation points at our start and our end of year, because what they think is really important, but more so that they can interact with each other, without that kind of senior, without that leadership, without Am I doing it right? They've learned so much from each other and how to interact and different styles that it's invaluable. The same with we have something called creative play, which, obviously we're a creative agency, so we love things like that. But what I realized is, if you put 20 people around a table and you say, right, we're going to talk about resource management, and if it's working, I'm going to get 19 blank faces, and maybe want the one person who likes to talk, and they're like creative play. We do things where we meet. And the last one we did was upcycling clothes, and we were designing T shirts and and one of our lovely creatives was teaching us how to do it. And it was all very informal. You had something to do with your hands. You were having fun. And we were still having that conversation about resource management, you know. And I think that's the difference of going you've got to set environments that people are comfortable in to share so that they don't feel there's going to be repercussions, or they don't feel they're going to say something stupid, and just little things like that, if you do them often enough, creates this flow of communication, which can be overwhelming, because it means you get the opinions from everywhere. So you have to be ready for that. Yeah, but it really allows everyone on their journey, and especially as they're growing and junior to go, Oh, my voice counts. There is a way for me to have it, and it doesn't have to be in that meeting, and it doesn't have to be in a one to one. I can find a way to communicate what I think through different outlets.

Katie:

I love that you've beat me to my next question. So it's gonna be No, it's great. That's what I want. Like you. How do you how do you build a culture that empowers everyone to do their best work, to show up in a way that is giving. And I think, I mean, you just have a fantastic attitude to all as all, all of this Jess like, in terms of your approach, you you want to give back, you want to empower your team. And I think, yeah, whether that's because you're introverted or just because you're a wonderful, lovely person, I think probably a bit of both, but it does mean that you're more thoughtful, and therefore you've set up the structures in the business to enable the business to thrive and grow and to put people first. And I think that's really beautiful. Thank

Jessica:

you very much. Yeah,

Katie:

yeah. I

Jessica:

think it's important. I think if, if, if companies and agencies, if you put as much time and energy and investment into your people as much as your product, you're gonna have a great impact. It's gonna come together a lot more smoothly, and you're going to discover things, more things than you would just in a boardroom. And I think we've got to start when we talk about, you know, voices at the table. You kind of go, it should be voices within all the walls. Because you don't, shouldn't have to be in that room and at that table just to be heard and seen, because that table's intimidating. That's the senior table. We have to be willing. And again, it does come back to that willing because it's bumpy road. It is hard, because people are unique and nuanced, and all have different kind of opinions and on different stages of the journey. But if you start to welcome it just magical things start to happen.

Katie:

Did you want to be at the table? That's an interesting because, as an extrovert, and I know I'm an extrovert, like, obviously having a podcast. And, I mean, I'm sure there are introverts that also have podcasts, but you know, I've always, I've always wanted to, yeah, I'm a Leo. I'm a typical Leo, like, I want to, I want to have my voice heard. So, you know, from a very young age, and probably similar to you like, you know, it came from, you know, I had a bit of a crappy time as a kid, and I needed to, you I had to pave away for my self in the world, like, I really knew that, you know, only no one's going to save me, like, I've got to save myself. So I think there was that side of things. But also, you know, I wanted, I always wanted to be in your place at the table, like, Oh, I was super ambitious, very early doors, you know, I wanted to be the best. I wanted to be in the boardroom. I wanted to, but if you're an introvert, do you want to be at the table? No, but you are, I

Jessica:

know. I know. Well they do say the people who want the power shouldn't have it. Yeah, I think that works for me in No, I never did. I think I wanted to do a good job. Yeah, and a bit like you say I wanted to be able to take care of myself and make people proud and do a good job. But no, I I wanted to keep my head down and not be involved in big discussions and conversations because they were scary to me. But like I said, I think once I saw that the people at that table have a huge influence on everyone, not at that table, you start to feel responsible. And if you can think things and see things and not do things, that was probably more frustrating than my fragility of not wanting to be involved, you go. But I think that could probably be done better. And I think that person struggling that feels unfair, we could change that. And I couldn't stop myself having those ideas and then speaking up, and then before you know it, that snowballs into, Oh, you've got all these great ideas, so get in here. Yeah. Damn it amazing. Yeah. The great thing as well, I never thought, is, if you're at the table, you can change the table, and I think that's been a great thing in terms of, obviously, the MBO and having the ability to do that, but being able to create a more diverse leadership team has changed what even I consider now as a leadership team, and what is the table? I think it's so different from that scary kind of men in gray suits hidden behind that closed door that I grew up thinking it was that, and for certain extent, it was when I was at Brightwood day in the beginning. We've now got such a diverse team, and that's not just gender and age. That's in terms of characteristics, because we've tried to build people who are different, because they're going to appeal to different people in our agency. And our agency has developers and creators and clients who, I mean, you couldn't get a broader mix of how people like to work and how they want to function. So they all need to have a leader that understands that. So I think one of the first things we did was make sure that the real agency was represented at that table. And I'm very proud of that, and it's made it easier to sit at the table, because suddenly it's interesting conversations. It's not about power, it's about doing great things. Yeah,

Katie:

I love that. My last question then, to you, Jess is, if you were advising your younger self or a woman that is potentially slightly more introverted than they are extroverted, on the things that they should do to get ahead in their career. What advice would you give them?

Jessica:

I will so before I give you, I think, some practical advice, I will say it's really important, probably for anyone, not just introverts, but to make sure you are at a company and a place that's right for you, you need to be somewhere where you feel comfortable sharing your limitations or your ideas or your weaknesses. You need to be somewhere where you can have conversations, because that's the only way it's going to work. It's not just you change yourself, but environment, people, things need to accommodate around you. So it's important to make sure you are somewhere where you are valued. And I always think looking at that bottle of water, actually, I don't know if you've ever seen the video, when you're Doom scrolling about the bottle of water, you say, this bottle of water in the shop, this bottle of water is one pound. That same bottle of water in that football stadium is four pound. That same bottle of water on that airplane is 10 pound. The water hasn't changed. It's changed its environment and its mood. So I think great analogy to go if you're feeling a bit stuck. Nothing wrong with going maybe this isn't the right place for me and finding the right environment. If you love where you are, however, and think it is the place for you and you are feeling introverted and the challenge. And struggles of that, I think three things. One, Master how you communicate powerfully. And I think we've touched on this a bit already, but it is about finding the communication form that works for you and the team and your managers, whether that is written, whether that is presentation, whether that is practice before you go in meetings. There is absolutely nothing wrong with asking for little practice runs. There's nothing wrong with potentially asking for the size of meetings to be reduced down so that you can share your component failing that get comfortable with being uncomfortable in those situations. Don't not share your ideas and opinions. And that's the one thing, I think, before you try to do anything else, figure that out, figure out your communication style, because you have to communicate two, I think, be considered with the relationships you create. I have always thought introverts and seen them make great relationships. And when you work, you know, kind of in the service industry and our Client Services team. Being able to make those relationships is invaluable. Being able to make those relationships internally is invaluable. The power of really deep, connected relationships in business. I think if you think, if you can create a champion, a mentor, and connect with your line manager, that's your trio. That's that's your perfect trio. So invest in those relationships, because you can do it. You can do it. It's one on one. They might not be your preferred ones, but focus on those ones and getting yourself comfortable in those relationships, because they will change the world for you. The third one is then probably true to anyone, not just introverts, and I have found along the way, I like to get involved in a lot of things and do a lot of things, and before I know it, I've lost sight of what it was I was even trying to do to begin with. And I think if you are struggling and not feeling seen or heared, make sure you identify what is the goal and the objective of the person or the team or the company you're trying to get noticed by. And I mean, really understand what are they trying to achieve? What are the results they want? What are they looking for? And hone in on that. Because I think the more you can focus in and go but you wanted to achieve X, I've got us to there, or at least y, because if you're still feeling unseen and unhealed at that point, you know, it's not the right place for you. But I think you have to be able to take a step back and go, Okay, I don't feel like it's working. I'm going to try this one thing on that one success measure, and I'm going to give it my all, because then, you know, you tried your best. Aside from that, I think all the little tips and tricks, you know, we kind of talk about process and then throw it away as if it's a bit of a nonsense and just written down for fun of it. I think sometimes, whereas we talk about giving agendas before meetings, invaluable to introverts, you know, a little thing companies can do, we like to think before we talk. Give us that agenda. Allow for written submissions of thoughts after a meeting. Don't be like, well, that's done. The door's closed, meeting over, because, again, we like to think on it. We like to share. So give us the forum to do that. Create quiet spaces in offices, create smaller groups. There are so many things that companies can also do to accommodate introverts. And I think if we do that, and if we build an environment where all those voices can talk, that conversation is going to be so much better than if it's just one

Katie:

love that create the right spaces. That's what it's about, really, isn't it? It's about as and I think that's what's probably great about you. You're having one extrovert and one introvert. You can kind of look at it from every lens, and you've designed a business that enables everyone to be able to stand up and stand out, which is, yeah, what I think is really important. Jess, thank you so much. You are incredible. Like, your knowledge, the advice you've got, like, just, thank you so much. You've been brilliant and a fantastic guest.

Jessica:

Thank you very much. I want to say I loved it, but you should provide my written Yes, tell me, yeah,

Katie:

tell me on an email later, you honestly. You've been amazing. Very much. Thank you. Thank you.