Marketing in the Madness

Driving Growth Through Bold Marketing Innovations with Heidrun Luyt

September 03, 2024 • Street Agency, Katie Street, Heidrun Luyt • Episode 51

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In today’s hyper-competitive market, playing it safe is no longer a viable strategy for growth. To stand out and drive commercial success, businesses must embrace bold marketing innovations that break the mould and challenge the status quo.

Whether redefining customer experiences or shaking up traditional industry norms, the key to thriving in this fast-paced landscape is a fearless approach to bold marketing innovations.

This week on Marketing in the Madness, we're looking into the transformative power of innovation and commercial growth with our brilliant guest, Heidrun Luyt. A seasoned commercial transformer who’s crossed industries to bring fresh, bold perspectives to marketing.

But, we're doing more than just talking about innovation, we’re dissecting how it drives profitability and transforms businesses.

Heidrun shares her incredible journey—from fashion retail to B2B SaaS—and how breaking industry norms has fueled her success. Together, we explore the importance of being brave in your marketing strategies and why sometimes, the most significant innovations are not about new technology but about daring to do things differently.

🚀 The Courage to Innovate
We discuss why brands need to break the rules of the traditional playbook and embrace bold, new strategies to drive true growth. And why staying in your lane might just be holding you back

🤝 The Intersection of Marketing and Commercial Growth
We explore how bold marketing innovations aren't just about brand awareness but a crucial driver of sales and profitability. Heidrun emphasises the importance of marketing teams stepping into the light and leading commercial transformation

💡 Innovating Beyond Technology
Discover how simplification and customer understanding can lead to some of the most impactful innovations, even in industries as complex as derivatives trading

👥 The Shift to Social-First B2B Marketing
As social media dominates more of our daily interactions, Heidrun highlights the importance of B2B brands showing up where their customers live—online. It's the perfect opportunity to learn how to effectively merge B2B and B2C strategies to create a seamless customer experience

⚡ From Digital to Real
Why digital-only strategies are no longer enough. We uncover how going "real" with out-of-home advertising and physical presence can make a significant impact in a crowded digital space

So, whether you’re looking to shake things up in your current marketing approach, understand how to better align with sales teams, or simply gain inspiration from someone who’s mastered the art of cross-industry innovation, this episode is packed with actionable insights.

📢 Don’t forget to LIKE & SUBSCRIBE to stay updated with future episodes.

Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the individual hosts and guests and do not reflect the views or opinions of the brands or organisations they are associated with. The content discussed is intended for informational and entertainment purposes only.

Heidrun Luyt
https://www.linkedin.com/in/heidrun-luyt/

Katie Street
https://www.linkedin.com/in/katiestreet/
https://www.instagram.com/streetmate/

Street Agency
https://street.agency/
https://www.instagram.com/street.agency/
https://www.linkedin.com/company/streetagency/


Heidrun:

A playbook, yes, has a reason to exist, but if you only stick to that playbook, well, you're going backwards. You have to break the rules. If you really mean growth. You have to take brave steps. I think

Katie:

that's what brands businesses need to do, is you need to get brave at trying new things, trying something that hasn't been done before within that business, is incredibly innovative. Innovation

Unknown:

doesn't always have to be like fancy technology. One innovation is in the context you're in, in the space you're in, what is different, What haven't we done before? And

Katie:

it has to go back to the customer value, because if there is no value to the customer, yeah, it's literally that simple.

Unknown:

The most important thing, besides knowing who your ideal customer is, is also knowing and what are we for them.

Katie:

Sometimes marketing seems fluffy over here, but the reality is, it powers sales that powers business growth. What advice would you give them when it comes to really driving that commercial growth within their business?

Unknown:

Oh, God, you've just opened. Can you we need another two hours for this one.

Katie:

Hi guys, and welcome to another. What I know is going to be, and I say this every time, amazing episode of marketing in the madness. Because, if you well, the whole podcast, right, is about innovation and how marketing drives innovation. But today, I am going to be chatting to someone who's going to really focus in not just on the innovations that have happened and need to happen in marketing, but also the transformations that need to happen in order to really drive profitability within business and accelerate the commerciality side of things, which is essentially, let's be honest, what marketing is all about in the real run. So Heidrun, welcome. So I'm just going to give Heidrun late I'm saying her name correctly. The reason I can remember this is because I'm late for everything. And I actually thought Heidrun's name was felt was pronounced loot, yeah, till this very moment. So for those of you that want to find her on socials, it's Heidrun and H, e, i, d, r, u, n, l, u, y t, yes, of course, didn't know how to say it.

Unknown:

It's not an easy one. No. But Heidrun

Katie:

and I actually have known each other, I think, or met originally, 12 years ago. I know, I think it must have been, honestly, it's scary when you were working at one of my favorite places, David Lloyd. Yeah, I am a member of David Lloyd to this day. In fact, I was there doing Blaze this very morning. I wasn't so much a fan of David Lloyd back then, just because,

Heidrun:

you became one. I but

Katie:

wasn't. I don't think we had one near me at the time. So David Lloyd actually overtook our local I think it must have been a virgin, but you were there at the time. I was working for a digital agency, and you were doing a big, big digital transformation project, and we were in as one of the agencies to pitch. Sadly, we didn't win. I think we did come quite a close second, very close. Yes, him very close. And then,

Unknown:

I mean, I'm gonna say he made a massive impression on

Katie:

me, exactly, which is great. And actually, what happened, I think, was, is you guys went with someone else, but then did come back to us afterwards, because they didn't quite deliver on their promises. So again, yeah, from a new business point of view, guys, they're interesting to always stay in touch, always be nice, because you never know, yeah, exactly what's going to come back. So hydro, apart from being at David Lloyd, of course, you have worked in lots of huge businesses to help them transform their marketing to hit their commercial goals. Can you give us a bit of a potted history about you, your career, where you've worked, and then, yeah, we can go on to talk about all of the different things that you've done and how you've helped these businesses grow.

Unknown:

Yes, well, I'm a bit of a serial commercial transformer hopping across industries, and I think I've done that really deliberately, so starting off in fashion retail, then going into consumer goods with Le Cozi, then into health and leisure with David Lloyd, leisure. I mean, was amazing. And then making a massive jump into the FinTech industry and do derivatives trading, marketing for derivatives trading. I had no idea how to spell derivatives at the time, let alone how to market it, but what an opportunity. And then seven years on from that, finding myself in B to B SAS with Pipedrive. So amazing journey there for the last two and a half years. And yeah, looking forward to what's to come next. Yeah, and

Katie:

I think that's really interesting about you, because lots of people tend to stay in their lane when it comes to the industry that they work in. So if they've started out in retail or beauty, they'll stay in retail and beauty. What made you want to move across to various different industries? I

Unknown:

think in the beginning of my career, where the focus is more on learning the technical skills and thinking about marketingism. Massive field. I mean, there's so many facets of marketing, right, that you have to get under your belt if you really want to do it well. And so the early days, it was all about just learning the different technical skills. And I thought, hold on a moment. Okay, if I move from job a to job B A, it needs to be a different technical skill. So I learned something new, but I could also do that in a different industry, and learn something on top of that, right? And the more I did it, the more excited I became about what's next. What's next, what's next, because every industry works slightly differently, different focus, different technology, different type of people, different problems to solve, different opportunities to go after. And that, in and of itself, just made it incredibly interesting. But equally, when you as a marketer, go into a space that you have very little information about or knowledge about, at the end of the day, you are the consumer, and that means you are absolutely objective. You know, eyes wide open, and you look at everything that you learn and go, Why would it be like that? Or, do I really understand this now? And in that way of exploring, you actually do your job far better because you find the things that are creating hurdles for consumers to understand. Oh, this is the value this product creates for me, or this is the value that service creates for me, and you immediately have an angle to actually transform and create innovation and create better customer value, which, in the end, drives better business growth. So that was ultimately the kind of driver for me to continuously do something new and something different for me, one, because I learn a lot, but two, because I actually felt I can do my job far better.

Katie:

Yeah, I love that, and I think it gives you exactly like you started to highlight there, the ability to ask questions. Sometimes ask stupid questions. I always say this to my team, like, ask, like, you don't know the answer. Like, ask Google. Or, like, actually asking questions, is, you know what drives innovation to a certain extent, because if you always assume, or it's always been done like this, it's you know, you've, let's say you know, you'd started out in the retail sector, you'd stayed in that sector. You'd know it inside out. You'd know what you're doing. You would trust the old ways that you've been delivering for years and years and years. So I think you've made a really smart move there by jumping to totally new sectors. You have to be more inquisitive, you have to ask more sometimes basic, but you have to ask more questions in order to understand and then come up with new solutions. And I think having the experience of them working in totally different sectors also enables you to look at things totally different and take learnings from other sectors. It's gonna really make people, you know, think about what they're doing, because you're dealing with a totally different ecosystem in the world, you know, of David Lloyd than you were, you know, when you were working for high end, absolutely, luxury retail brands.

Unknown:

And it's a matter of, I mean, don't get me wrong, every industry you know evolves and you know moves on and has new problems to solve, etc. So you never stand still, no matter where you are. It's just the more you move across industries, the more you are pushed to actually learn faster and understand you know quicker. And therefore, because you get to see more, your toolbox builds up much quicker. And the next opportunity you have, wherever that is, you go, hang on a moment, I've seen something similar. It's not quite the same, but it's similar. And let me just get that tool out of my toolbox and see if I can make it work in here as well, right? And so you immediately have far more diverse thinking. You have far more innovative thinking within that. But equally, you're using what you've already seen and learned. And so there's a good element of connecting, yeah,

Katie:

totally. And that is, I guess, what marketing's all about, really, is connecting those dots in order to drive revenue exactly, become commercially astute. Can you name sort of talking around that kind of approach to innovation, something that you've done, maybe when you've entered one of the businesses that you've worked for, that you're allowed to talk about something really innovative that you've delivered that's really helped change a business from a marketing perspective.

Unknown:

An example to give here is when I joined IG group derivatives trading. As I said to you before, I had no clue about derivatives, I remember the conversation I had with my husband, like, why would I do that? Like, you know, I'm not quite sure about and you said, I have a feeling you would actually really really like it. It'll put you on your tippy toes, and you'll put it just in your element. So I gave it a go, but because I had no idea about it, I just needed to learn quite quickly. Like, what is it all about? How do the markets move? What do the different instruments and products mean? How does the platform work? And so I used the materials that you know IG already had for it's. Lines. I read through it all. I checked the platform, and I thought, Jesus, I'm not such a slow learner, but it doesn't make sense to me. So I checked with a few other people that weren't traders either, and they were equally going, I don't get it, like, this is too hard, right? And then I thought, but I could be a potential customer of this business, so if I don't get it, and if the other people I checked, who equally could be, you know, customers of their business, don't get it, we have a massive problem, because the content was created by traders of many, many, many, many years, right that all speak the jargon and all know it inside out the platform you went on, and you know where to even start, and it actually really frightened you. So using that feedback and then checking in with customers that had just tried, you know, gone through the kind of process and gotten the same feedback, we started to change the content quite dramatically. We started to bring education into the platform. We started to bring a step by step process to the platform, ultimately creating customer experience, but breaking it down. So that's something that is actually really exciting. And, you know, intellectual can at the same time be enjoyable and fun, because you don't feel like an empty right? You get it and you go for it and you try it out. So it's putting yourself in the customer's shoes and through your experience, understanding, where is that lever that I can actually pull to create some innovation. And innovation doesn't always have to be like fancy technology. What innovation is in the context you're in, in the space you're in, what is different? What haven't we done before that could ultimately create more value for the customer? So that's just one example. I love that. And

Katie:

you're so right. You know, it's, it's actually like everyone thinks technology, I mean, technology does drive a lot of innovation. Is what I talk about a lot on this podcast when it comes to marketing, because I think we're at an really interesting point of in time where there's more change than ever happening, which is being driven by technology. But it's so important to remember what you've just said, Because innovation isn't just technology. There's a huge amount that is just change, trying something new, trying something different, trying something that hasn't been done before within that business, even if it's been done by other businesses, is incredibly innovative. And I think for you there tech, you're kind of scaling things back and really just focusing in on, you know, what can I do to make this more understandable? Is hugely innovative. Because, like you say, these traders who know it inside out, you I log into the hog, these lands down, which is potentially, you know, quite easy to understand. And I still find it quite like, Oh, am I buying the right shares or doing the right like, you know, it's, it's confusing when you get into that world. So actually, simplification in that in that world is innovation.

Unknown:

And I guess that's, again, right kind of moving through different industries, you pick up how in particular industry work. You know what tools they use, what channels they use, or whatever. You go into a different industry, and they do it very differently, and you go, hang on a moment. This is really interesting. I like it. I'll continue doing it. But they haven't even touched X, Y and Z. And if you think about the customer profile, they're completely missing a trick. So when I joined the B to B world. And I remember to the day, I was in a room with about 100 other CMOS, all B to B. And, you know, up until that point, my background, I had some B to B under my belt, but it was mainly B to C. And so I was talking to them to begin with. And it felt like, Hey, are we talking like, are we speaking a different language? And I told them, You know what I'm working on, and you know what channels I will add and whatnot. They were all like, oh, what? No, what you're doing this for B to B business. And I said, Yeah, because if you think about the type of customer we have, that was, you know, back then at Pipedrive, it makes out of sense, these customers hang out in these channels, and they do want to, you know, hear about a solution that helps them, you know, makes their lives and their business lives better. So why wouldn't I be talking to them on these channels? And it is just because it was natural to me, coming from other industries that, you know, use these particular B to C marketing channels to try it out in a B to B space was quite natural for me, but it was almost this kind of shock horror moment, yeah, for the other B to B marketers. But anyway, we, you know, we know, the trends are now more and more merging anyway, and I'm really glad about it. I mean, there shouldn't be a separation of, you know, you must only do x in this world and only y in that world. Well, that's the death of innovation, right? You should just try out what you think makes logical sense. In order to create customer value, I keep coming back to customer value because that's what it's all about commercial transformation,

Katie:

right? Yeah, it has to, and it has to go back to the customer value, because if there is no value to the customer. They're not going to buy it. Yeah, it's literally that simple. I love what you were talking about there, about going where your customers are and showing up in channels that may be normal, traditional b to b bits. And this is a hot topic for me, so I hope I'm not going to overtake the whole podcast with this, because obviously I also work in B to B marketing. In fact, I've also just adopted Pipedrive, so we're on our Pipedrive induction journey. I think I'd say at the moment, getting everything set up. I would love to know so what did that? Because I'm really starting to see this. The world is changing. We all know that we live and breathe on socials. I know I bang on about this all the time, so I'm really sorry, listeners and watchers, but I really, you know, kind of advocate businesses taking a social first approach when it come in the world of B to B now, because we, and in fact, we see 80, 90% of our results for our clients come through social media now, not through traditional, more traditional methods like email marketing, etc. And that's because we all live and breathe on social media. That's we go to our networks to find our products, and that's social networks. But also, you know, friends, family, when it's in our personal life, colleagues, potentially friends and family, sometimes in the business world, like, you know, who do you trust that could help you do X, Y and Z? You know, referrals through your social network are incredibly important. So businesses in the B to B world that aren't showing up, I don't think on social are really starting to miss a trick. So can you talk to me about anything that you have done? I guess in that B to B world, it doesn't have to be at Pipedrive done or seen. That's because I do think we're at a huge intersection of change at the moment that you really saw had a bigger impact than maybe you thought it would, or that really helped drive a change within the business.

Unknown:

I refer back to what I said, Right? There's almost a little bit of an industry or, you know, type of marketing playbook, right? And you almost just go by the rules, you know, a bit in a blind fashion, that's silly, right? A playbook, yes, has a reason to exist, because it holds things that have proven to work, but if you only stick to that playbook, well, you're going backwards. Yeah, yeah. Break the rules. You have to break the rules. And to me, it always starts and ends everything with that customer. And I have to really think, well, who is that customer that obviously, like, B to B is a big space, right? It's very, really different. If you have a, I don't know, you know, micro or kind of, you know, solopreneur as your audience, versus an enterprise business like, I mean, completely different kettle of fish in some regards, and then you have some elements that still remain the same. But all I'm saying is really think hard about who's my customer like? Go deep, deep, deep on this, you know, ideal customer profile. Don't just touch the surface really. Go deep down on what are their needs, their behaviors? Where do they hang out? Who do they ask? Ask for advice, you know? How do they prefer to make decisions, etc, etc. And then, based on that information, think, well, what channels are out there that could really kind of start the connection with those individuals, right? And if I take the B to B space in particular, over the last few years, I can see a change now, and I'm really glad to see that change. But in the B to B space, it was very much well, marketing is kind of in particular enterprise, the support function, creating little bit of thought leadership, creating the sales kind of, you know, playbooks, the white papers, the whatnot, but hang out in the background. That's crazy. You have to, as a marketing team, you have the biggest budget, you have to kind of go loud and proud out there, build that brand, make it real, not just digital. I mean, lot of B to be players were digital only, and now you can really see a shift. And I brought that into being a Pipedrive as well. You have to become real, and the reaction of being real, and by real, I mean you're actually physically out there in the world, you you're out of home, you're in on audio, you're you know, you you know. You walk down the street and you all of a sudden, see the spread. I remember when we ran out of home on tube, and I had photos sent to me like, Oh yeah, I'm seeing Pipedrive on the tube. And, oh my god, we had partners kind of, you know, text us saying, I can't believe the day has finally come. You know that, you know you're out there in the open. And so many leads came just from that. So again, kind of breaking what's normal, what's expected, and therefore you get more right? And it's now the same conversation. For example, if you take AI, oh, what's AI going to change? And you know, what is it going to master? And you know, how is it going to change? What teams are focusing on is. Etc, etc. And there's more and more talk on AI, obviously taking the complexity of the multi channel and the omni channel and the whatnot, and really mastering the personalization, which, let's face it, the majority of business are just not getting right. It's just too complex, too many systems, etc, etc, right? But let's assume AI can do that brilliant. And what does it do? It allows us to actually put focus on the human connection again. So more and more people are going back talking about real communities, real human events, right? Putting time into that. And if I look at you and I right, I mean, 12 years ago we met, yeah, it was that human connection that made us come back to each other, right, time and time again. Yeah,

Katie:

Hi, Jen, and thank you, by the way, because you're basically referencing what my business does and highlighting the importance of it, because that's what we do for the tech companies that we work with is, you know, we put people front and center of the campaigns, and that's us putting on fantastic dinners, in person events, breakfasts, conferences, but also creating really human content off the back of that. And that is where we see the most fantastic results for our clients. It's recording podcast content like this. It's putting in person events together. It's becoming real, not, of course, using digital channels and also automation tools to reach your audience. But I think that's often forgotten. And things that I've loved seeing like, especially when I go on holiday, but you can see like, when there's big marketing conferences that I go to, obviously we get involved with quite a few podcast takeovers. Is that you see the marketing technologies there advertising. So people are getting smarter at that out of home stuff that they're going, Oh, we know there's this big conference, or there's something happening, we're going to, you know, do some out of home at the airport or, you know, in Lisbon when it's Web Summit, or whatever it might be when the conference is on, because we know our audience are there. And I think that's the that's the key here. Where do they live and breathe? How do they want to interact? Where do they want to interact? What kind of language? I mean, there's so many things to think of when it comes to marketing. You

Unknown:

just have to be where your consumer is. And you also have to think, Where does your consumer currently given trends, just gets bombarded and therefore becomes blind. I'm not saying email marketing is dead. I'm not saying that it's very alive, and at the same time, it's a thing that you know from a B to B point of view, you just get bombarded every day with so many cold call emails and so many people I know just go, delete, delete, delete, delete. You just don't get the consumer right. You don't cut through. So what else could you do? What don't they get anymore? Oh, maybe a physical direct, yeah, right. I mean, I'd actually be quite excited if I got yeah through the post, something nice, excited about, right? Yeah, yeah. So it's just think, where are they, what is almost kind of my must have like, you know, the base I have to hit, but then where can I get them in the unexpected moment that is still relevant?

Katie:

I'm going to go back to something you said a little while ago, but at the beginning of this part of the conversation, which was around the different consumer profiles. So really understanding your ICP, you're speaking to business owners of very small businesses all the way up to a very different audience. When you're marketing to enterprise, and I assume Pipedrive are also at both ends where they're talking to very small businesses, but also very driven, probably in the sales team, really kind of gunning for those enterprise accounts. I've got a lot of clients like that stripe being another one. So when you've got those very different profiles, potentially also living in the same place, how do you develop because they've got very different messages often that they need to hear? Oh, absolutely. So how on earth do you make sure the right person's seeing the right message in the right place at the right time. Tough question. Sorry, I had to ask it, though it's

Unknown:

a tough question. Also, you know, up until now, quite a tough answer. And I referred earlier to the complexity, right? I mean, when I first started marketing many, many moons ago, the complexity level was far less, right? I know there were a few channels that you kind of had to deal with and Happy Days, direct mail,

Katie:

literally, campaigns I used to do were like, you know, we were just worried that the guy delivering the leaflets was going to chuck them in the bin like it was so much easier. I mean, and that isn't even even that long ago. That isn't that long I mean, maybe I'm just,

Unknown:

yeah, I mean, I remember I started as a media planner, yeah, and yeah, you know, my kind of spreadsheet back in the days of here, all of my channels, and these are the teams I have to, you know, engage with to put that media plan together. And this is when things go out. Wasn't really complex. Was easy to kind of, you know, manage. These days, it's a plethora. Channels. They are all highly reactive. You can do lots of things. I mean, it's so cool what you can do, but the difficulty is, the more you can do, the more difficult it becomes, right? And if I look back at, you know, the last few years, and I put myself again, in a consumer, in the shoes of consumer, I get more and more disappointed by how companies deal with me. I get a whole I get a lot. I get volume, volume, volume, but I don't get quality. They don't take into account what I've already purchased when I've purchased it. They, you know, don't look further back in my history. They don't make clever suggestions. It's just, and I get fed up with it. Now hopefully comes the use of AI, where businesses really make the most of that to tidy up and go, Okay, let's just look at all of the various areas that we are operating in. Let's see where we meet and could and should personalize and then really create those customer journeys and the flows. And this is where, obviously, your customer segment comes in, right? Some businesses, okay, if you're a startup, you might have a kind of slightly smaller, you know, set and of segments. But if I think back at IG, we had loads. I mean, we had a B to C business, we had a B to B business, and a B to B to B to C business. And within the B to C you had your day traders, you had your stock traders, you had your traders. They are all very different beasts, and then some that like to do a little bit of this and a little bit of that and a little bit of that. So how do you combine them all right? And I think the important thing about, you know, this concept of ideal customer profile that has, you know, become so popular over the last few years that it's popular for a reason, because it is so important that you are as an organization, 100% aligned of who are we going after? That's our focus. That's where the effort, the money, the everything goes. Where's our opportunity area. So you know the things on the side where you go. If they come through the door, we welcome them like we're happy, right? But we are not necessarily putting like a whole marketing campaign or a whole sales motion towards them. And then, equally, you need to know those segments over there, they're not for us to touch. And here are the reasons why it's not a static thing, because things obviously change, right? Your product evolve. If I take, for example, Pipedrive, it started off in the smaller company sizes, but the smaller companies, over time, things to the help of Pipedrive became bigger, right? And so they had more complex needs. And so the Pipedrive product evolved with the needs of the customers, and all of a sudden, you know, what is your focus, segment starts to shift, and you have to reevaluate where we at now, who is our ideal customer profile? Now, that doesn't change. You know, every few days it stays No, but it stays constant for quite some time. But it does change, and you have to have the entire business aligned behind that, if you ask 10 people whose ideal customer profile, they need to give the same answer. And the most important thing besides knowing who your ideal customer is, is also knowing and what are we for them. So know yourself as a brand and know what your differentiator and your value provision to these customers is, again, if you ask 10 people, they give the same answer, and that what gives you that superpower framework to then send all of the various teams in an organization off to do their magic in their lanes, to really serve that customer and that brand that you have?

Katie:

Yeah, I love that. Oh my gosh, and I can see the passion.

Unknown:

I love it too much.

Katie:

Yeah, me too. It's such an exciting I mean, that's what I like. And also it kind of boils down to psychology, and you know how to win the hearts and minds of your consumers, and you've got to do that differently in different places at different times. I just love, I love, I love the complexity of marketing, and I also love how much it changes, and the fact that you do need to keep reviewing things like, you know, you can't, you can't stay still in our world. And in fact, you know, more so than ever. Like you say, way back when you I actually started my career in advertising, and yeah, it was very, it was very easy back then you go, I want to talk to, I don't know, men, and I'm good at advertising, FHM, or like, you know, or certain groups that was, you know, want to talk to entrepreneurs. I advertising. Don't know if this is a thing. I'm just making it up. But entrepreneurs world, you know, if I want to talk to executives, I, you know, talk to them through these other magazines or channels. Like it was very easy to target your audience, whereas it is more complex now, but that is. What makes it super interesting? I think, I guess

Unknown:

it was easy because you couldn't make it more complex because you just didn't have the information. Yeah, it made it probably less effective because you didn't have the information. Therefore, it was a little bit kind of blah, you know, widespread. And let's hope, you know, yeah, we

Katie:

couldn't pray, yeah. And it, and it will, I remember, like, meet, when I was then moved to kind of marketing agency side, and, you know, media planners, which I was more I was, like, in ad sales, way back when you'd be like, Oh, well, this, these people drive past this, you know, this outdoor, you know, Clear Channel sign every day, and you just had no idea whether it was going to get an impact or not. So I do think, you know, we can track things. We can see the results. We can, you know, we have a lot more knowledge now, which is very exciting. But sometimes, you know, we still get it wrong. And actually, sometimes you've got to get it wrong right. And again, that kind of maps back to innovation,

Unknown:

exactly, and you learn. But what you just said about, oh, you know, so and so person drives past this home, whatever it just like, just to say, like, why should B to B think outside the digital box? Yeah, in particular, when you look at more the kind of mid market enterprise customers is, once you have your champion in a particular business, and you're starting to foster the relationships to get to the influences and the decision makers and the so and so well use out of home around their main office to kind of go, yeah, right, yeah. I mean, just think about your, you know, conscious you're traveling, you're seeing, you're you just have to kind of take all of the various angles that get a customer to your brand.

Katie:

Yeah, that note again, to notice you and to watch. And, I mean, it's clever when you start personalized. The same thing I was gonna say, Yeah, you said you so can, I mean, how clever would be? I mean, not sure how, how personal you could get. But like, if you could start to, like, put people's pictures, and I actually saw a VR kind of installation of Waterloo on my way here today, of a shark in Waterloo that was and even thinking, like, if you could bring some of the people to life or offer them a coffee, or, I mean, there's so much, there's, I mean, you can get really smart with this kind of stuff when you've got the budgets. And I think that's what clients need to yoga. Or, yeah, I'm calling them clients. They're my clients. But brands businesses need to do is we need to get brave at trying new things. And, you know, driving those innovations, it doesn't have to be technology led. It can just be doing something different. And

Unknown:

that's the brave the brave thing is really important, because if you think about different industries, you immediately have some stereotype in it, you know, like, what would a bank ad look like? What colors would they use? What font type would they use? What language would they use? So you have certain stereotypes per industry. And then you look at, I find it super interesting when you look at ads across kind of main players in an industry, and you take the logo off, and you go, who is that? And they all look the same, right? They're all blue, or they're all whatever

Katie:

blue in financial and that's what's interesting about Sorry to interrupt, but really, I love this case study. Klarna, yeah, entering a market as a pink like, it's so simple, literally, just showing up pink made them really I mean, obviously with the personality and a really cool concept and technology behind it, but they showed up pink. They shook that industry to its core, and everyone stood up and went, Wow, that's really different. That's cool, exactly,

Unknown:

exactly, but it takes the brave to go, Oh, I know there's a stereotype, and there's a reason for the stereotype, because that's how you know, people understand I am industry X, Y or Z, but find the way to still be the industry, but different, yeah, be interesting. That's the only way that you actually, you know, create real awareness and, like, shake things up, yeah? But it takes the break

Katie:

and smart, because, yeah, again, let's be honest, a lot of us women hold the purse strings, and probably would quite like to see some pink feminine energy in some of the tech companies. Yeah, I've just, I've just ordered another, a new revolute card, and I've ordered it in, like, a nice pinky purple color, because I feel like that's, that's your brand I'm wearing today, you know, and that's your brand. Yeah, exactly. We've got pink purple here. So, yeah, I think that's the, that's the thing now, is you've got to be, you've got to be brave, you know, you can't be too you can't be too stale and pale anymore, if

Unknown:

you really mean growth, yeah, and it's not just a word, yeah, but you really mean it, yeah, to take brave steps, is

Katie:

it? I don't know if it's Mark Ritson or Rory Sutherland that says when the world zigs zag, but that's it. Basically,

Unknown:

if you just do as everybody else does, okay, you get some market share. Yeah, right. But if you really want to grow, yeah, you have to find an angle to do it differently within that I love, straight. Hmm, oh, hydrogen.

Katie:

I want to talk to you forever. The more these podcasts go on, the more I'm like, I need more time. But I want to ask you one last question. I think we've probably just covered it to a certain extent. But when it comes to you know, marketers really focusing in and driving that, I guess you're giving marketers the commercial awareness that they need, but also how they should focus in order to achieve that commercial growth and really deliver impact back to the business. Because I think sometimes marketing seems fluffy over here, but the reality is, it powers sales, that powers business growth, that is business at the end of the day. So we have such an ability to, you know, when we're in marketing roles, to really change the business, you know, marketing and the product or the service, whatever it might be, there's a real fine line between the two sometimes. So, you know, giving advice to other marketers that may be listening to today's podcast, what advice would you give them when it comes to really driving that commercial growth within their business? Oh, God,

Unknown:

you've just

Katie:

over there.

Unknown:

No, it's, it's a real passion topic of mine. I need every marketer out there to understand that they're commercial key drivers. They have the power to have their hands in so many different pots in the business, from creating that brand awareness first and foremost, which is so important if people don't know that you exist and what you stand for, they're pretty unlikely to buy from you, or, you know, buy again, from you. So number one, right? Then the power to actually make people to consider, make them have a look around, right? Have the push to get them to try and buy potentially right in the in the acquisition line, teaming up with the sales team. I mean, you got all of the leads in in the first place, like team up with the sales team, understand what they're doing with the leads that you just gave. Them. Work together. It has to be one commercial goal in an organization, accountability on both parts, no finger pointing, accountability on the goal side, accountability on the metric side, and working together. Yes, everybody then has their responsibilities in their own lanes, but you have to communicate. You have to put feedback back and forth. You have to inform I'm doing X because I'm seeing y in the market. That might have the following consequences for you, you know, further downstream. So really come together and as a marketer, let's say said you quite often own the biggest budget in the organization. You owe it to the organization to return on that investment big time. So step forward into the light center stage. Run that p&l And be commercial. Being commercial doesn't stop you from being creative. It doesn't stop you from being, you know, highly data driven. It doesn't at all commercial is an outcome of the various things you do, but you have to be commercial in order to make that business grow, in order to drive further customer value, and so on and so on and so on. I get so passionate about this, this topic, because I've just seen too many marketers in my lifetime living this life backstage, being either support function or being even a cost center, you know the word fluffy, I just get allergic to, so step up. Understand your game. Understand that you need a seat at the table to make strategic decisions for the organization and drive

Katie:

growth. Love Mic drop. That, honestly, is such good advice. And I love the piece that you say about, you know, really getting to know the sales team and following your customers full customer journey. Because there's, it's got to be seamless. It's got to work. Well, you can't be, you know, handing leads over that aren't exactly

Unknown:

and then comes, you know, the post sale bit like, what about your existing customers, right? You owe them the good onboarding, the nurturing, the upsell, the cross sell. You have to be involved. It's still your gig.

Katie:

Yeah, stop. You can't stop marketing to your existing customers, because they'll just leave Exactly. That's it. It's that simple, Heidrun. Thank you so much. I literally could talk to you like for the rest of today. I love your passion, and I love that we're like, we're kind of passionate about the same things, which is always great. I'm really excited to see what happens next for you. If you guys want to get in touch with hydrin, please do connect with her on LinkedIn. She has a wealth of knowledge. Well, as you've all heard today. So hydrin A big thank you for coming.

Unknown:

Thank you. It was brilliant. Thanks.

Katie:

Hey guys. Me again. I. Hope you enjoyed the episode that you've just listened to, and if you did, I'm going to do the you know, The annoying thing that all podcasters do, which is go and ask you to subscribe, because it really does make a difference to our rankings. And please do. Go subscribe, leave a comment, give us a five star review. If you did love it, if you want to get in touch, do check out the email address in the show notes. Most importantly, again, if you're on YouTube, please subscribe by clicking the button somewhere that is on this screen, and it'll mean you get notified when new episodes go live.