Marketing in the Madness

Gender Equality Exposed! What's really happening in the workplace with Stephanie Aitken

• Street Agency, Katie Street, Stephanie Aitken • Episode 47

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Welcome to another transformative episode of Marketing In The Madness! This week we're bringing you an inspiring LIVE recording backstage at MAD//Fest London Female Leaders Club with Stephanie Aitken, a renowned Gender Diversity Consultant, where we explore more than the innovations pushing marketing forward, but the cultural shifts necessary to empower women in the workplace and drive true gender equality.

We uncover the startling statistics highlighting the ongoing struggle for gender equality in a corporate world where achieving gender equality is more critical than ever. Yet, many women continue to face significant challenges in advancing their careers and balancing personal commitments. And it is projected to take 131 years to reach gender parity globally according to the World Economic Forum.

As well as gaining insight into Stephanie, who has dedicated her career to advancing women in leadership roles, as she shares her journey from being a lawyer to becoming a pivotal force in gender diversity consultancy.

In this episode, you'll discover:

🚀 Stephanie’s Career Journey: Stephanie pivoted from law to gender diversity consultancy, driven by her commitment to supporting women in the corporate world.

👩‍👧‍👦 Real Challenges Women Face: Understand the multifaceted challenges women encounter in the workplace and why superficial policies aren’t enough to foster true gender equality.

💡 Groundbreaking Research: Stephanie reveals key findings from her research, highlighting the critical gaps in current diversity practices and the unique needs of women at different career stages.

🌐 Cultural Buy-In: Discover the importance of cultural buy-in at all organizational levels to ensure that diversity initiatives are genuinely effective and inclusive.

🎤 Role of Male Allyship: Explore the vital role of male allies in supporting gender equality and how men can actively contribute to creating a balanced workplace.

🌟 Vision of Gender Harmony: Stephanie introduces her innovative concept of “gender harmony,” where everyone, regardless of gender, is supported to thrive, promoting an inclusive and equitable work environment.

Tune in and join us for a thought-provoking discussion that not only highlights the current state of gender equality in the corporate world but also offers practical strategies for creating lasting change. Whether you're a business leader looking to implement effective diversity practices or someone passionate about gender equity, this episode provides invaluable insights and actionable advice.


📢 Don’t forget to LIKE & SUBSCRIBE to stay updated with future episodes. If you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a review and share it with your network. Your support helps us reach more people and continue to share remarkable stories of those championing gender diversity and inclusion in the marketing industry.

Introduction to Stephanie Aitken, Gender Diversity Consultant 0:00
Gender Inequality in Leadership Positions 04:04
Shocking Perception of Progress 09:33
The Importance of Male Allyship 13:22
The Backlash Against Women's Rights 19:09
Shifting the Paradigm: “Gender Harmony” 23:19

Stephanie Aitken

Connect with Katie Street:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/katiestreet/
https://www.instagram.com/streetmate/

Follow Street Agency:
https://street.agency/
https://www.instagram.com/street.agency/
https://www.linkedin.com/company/streetagency/


Hey guys, and welcome back to another episode of marketing the madness. Now, as you may see behind me, if you're watching and not just listening, we are not actually called marketing the madness anymore. For the next few weeks, there are some very special episodes coming because we are live backstage in the female leaders club at madfest. So at the moment, we are called marketing in the Mad fest, rather than marketing in the madness so there's going to be a few special episodes coming at you. This being one of them, which I really hope you enjoy. We're going to be uncovering not just the marketing innovations that get us further, but also the cultural innovations that need to happen to get women ahead at work, I wanted to find out what the missing piece of the puzzle was, but go straight to source and ask women, what is it that you need to succeed? There's so much change that needs to happen culturally. People have really got to buy into this. Everyone within the business has got to buy into it to truly make it work. A lot of companies are doing certain things, but it isn't really making a difference, and it doesn't feel that it's truly genuine. What's frustrating is that men, they think, oh yeah, the women are taking over, but the reality in the stats and the behaviors internally within businesses totally prove us that that's not the case. I believe that we won't reach gender equality by focusing only on women. If you introduce a flexible working policy, we need men to be taking advantage of that. If people choose and design and their life around having part time work or doing job shares. We need to make work more flexible for everyone. 68% of people believe and recognise that we don't have equality between men and women, and yet, 54% think that we have gone too far with women's rights. The World Economic Forum has just published their gender report, and it has shown that it's going to take 134 years before we reach gender parity. Hi guys, and welcome back to another episode of marketing in the Mad fest, not the madness, because today we are backstage in the female leaders club, and I am, of course, interviewing some incredibly inspirational people about how women can get ahead at work, obviously, specifically in the marketing industry. But my next guest actually goes a bit broader than that. So with me I have and I'm going to start looking at her now, the fantastic Stephanie Aitken, Stephanie is, I'm going to get it wrong. I'm going to ask Stephanie to Stephanie tell me your job gender, gender diversity consultants I have got, yeah. So first of all, Can you unpack me what a gender diversity consultant is and how you got here? Yeah, sure. So firstly, it's super excited to be here and speaking with you. Well, what I do is basically, I go into companies and I help them support women to advance so they can retain more women, get more women into leadership, make sure that women are thriving at every stage of their career. So I do that through consultancy. I also coach women. I run training programs for men and women so that, yeah, companies really have everything in place. Brilliant. I love that, and I'm going to go backwards a little bit, because Steffen and I met on a panel at Google talking about, I can't it was around resilience, yeah, female resilience, that was the subject. Well done. But then we don't tend to meet up in the UK that much. We've met in Tulum. We've met in Barcelona, and now, actually, London, finally in London. Yeah, I love this rain. I know, I know, and it really is not summer today. So what I'm really interested in understanding is how you help those businesses kind of you've given us a bit about your role. I'd love to know a bit more about how you got there personally. But also, I guess, the kind of things that you're actually enabling businesses to do and how you're doing it? Yeah, sure. So I started off my career as a lawyer. Don't judge me, and I'm lawyers, so don't worry. Well, I worked, I worked in house, and I worked in TV. So I worked for MTV, I worked for Channel Four, and was actually one of my internal clients, was the ATA on the sponsorship team at MTV. So I was putting together all the deals and the 360 marketing campaigns for them and so forth. So what I've seen in my career. So I did that for 10 years, and then I preferred the people's side of business to the contracts. And so I switched into training and coaching, and what I kept seeing was brilliant, talented, incredible women struggling, struggling with their confidence, struggling with imposter syndrome, struggling to really be heard, even when they got a place at the table, struggling with all of the biases. That they face, struggling with the systems that held them back, and I really wanted to do something about that. So five years ago, I really pivoted to focus on women, and started off very much coaching women and supporting them, and then I realized, well, this isn't enough. Unless we change things at the organizational level, we aren't going to get where we need to be. So yeah. So that's what took me to do now, yeah, and I love it. I mean, what? It must feel incredible to actually be making a difference. Because, like you say, it's one, one thing coaching the person. And I do. I'm actually coaching a fantastic team of amazingly inspirational women at your next at the moment. But you know, and actually, the company's really bought into it. And we're doing some things company wide, maybe some stuff that I can get you involved with. But, you know, by coaching the person, there's only so far you can go. Like you say, the companies have to buy into it. There's so much change that needs to happen outside of, you know, well, even the company at a certain point, you know, culturally, people have really got to buy into this. The whole business. Everyone within the business has got to buy into it to truly make it work. So a few things first, should we talk about the research first? Does that make sense? Yeah, so you've been doing some research on this, which I guess maybe leads, you, know, forwards to the kind of your three key principles. But tell me about the research first. Yeah, it is something I'm passionate about, and it is hugely fulfilling, but I'll be completely honest, it's also quite frustrating, because the pace of change is glacial. And what I really noticed was, despite the fact that we've got so much research that backs the fact that having more women in leadership is brilliant for business. It improves profitability, it improves performance, it improves talent retention. I mean, the list goes on, innovation, on and on and on, and yet we are still at the point where there is not much there's not many women in leadership. So I wanted to find out what the missing piece of the puzzle was, which is why I decided to do this piece of research. And in fact, we look the World Economic Forum has just published their gender report, and it has shown that it's going to take 134 years before we reach gender parity. That's across the board. Now my focus is within the corporate world, within companies, and so I decided to commission a piece of research to find out what that missing piece is. Not ask the companies, but go straight to source and ask women, what is it that you need to succeed? What is what is it you need to be able to thrive in advance, not through a tick box quiz or questionnaire, but interviewing them going really deep, and we found out some really fascinating things, some worrying things, some reinforcement of things we already know, but some new insights as well. And I think some of the key things that we discovered was that a lot of companies are support washing, and by Support washing, I mean they're going through the motions, they're doing certain things, but it isn't really making a difference, and it doesn't feel to the women within the organizations that it's truly genuine. And that's a real problem, because if women sense that they're not going to buy into it, and they're certainly not going to remain at those companies if they feel that it's somewhat disingenuous. So lots of company, and I'm not going to name any names in terms of the companies or the women where they worked, but we're talking big players across different industries. So yes, many of these companies are doing International Women's Day events and ticking the boxes with bias training, and this that the other but it's not really making any difference. The other key piece is that women are not getting the right support at the right times. So you just did a fantastic panel today talking about really making sure that women are supported in the right way across the life cycle of their careers. And this is what I found as well. And I've had this hypothesis for a while, which is women at different stages of their career needed different things. So you can't just provide a single solution for women, as though we're some homogeneous lump, right? And so we need to, actually, companies need to speak to their women and really understand their women and understand what is it they need at the early stage of their career, which is going to be different to the mid stage, which is different at the senior stage, I totally one empathize, but also wholeheartedly agree with everything you're saying. I think the other thing and I'm going, Oh, is what's frustrating is that men think, often think, and I don't know that the maybe there's a separate, like interview report, something that we could do with guys is that I think they think it's now equal, and they they think, oh, yeah, the women are taking over. There's so. Much talk about this stuff, but the reality and the stats and the behaviors of, you know, internally within businesses, totally prove us that that's not the case. But I do think there's lots of guys think it is fair what you I mean, I've even had, you know, ex boyfriends who had lovely guys and not meaning to be horrible. We don't understand the problem because they're not necessarily. They're not living it like we live it. They're not. They don't care enough to look at the stats, because it doesn't affect them in their day to day. They don't live, you know, they don't have the lived experiences that we have it as women, when we have to take a pay cut to have a baby, or we have to take time out of work because we've hit menopause and we're really struggling. Or, you know, I don't know, the millions of other things you know that having to take time off work to look after your kids. You know, one of the stats that I thought was quite shocking today is 20. I think I might get slightly wrong. It's either 27 or 28% of women have to work part time when they have children, yet only 6% of men do. I mean, what more evidence do you need? Yeah, I think there's a real dissonance where people believe that we're further along than we actually are, and it's shocking to hear that it's oh no, no, we're actually 134, years away. And so that leads people to believe that we don't need to do so much, and oh my gosh, why do we keep banging on about women? But actually, that's one of the things in the research I really wanted to re well, not reveal but remind people that we're still quite far from it. And there's a number of challenges in the research report, which for women is going to be like, oh, when the women read it, they said, Oh, yeah. Well, of course, of course. Oh, you know. So we face a confidence paradox, where the corporate world is saying, Oh, you've got to be assertive and confident, but then women struggle to be confident and assertive because they've come through a whole culture and system that's told them, you know, to be the good girl, be pretty, don't speak up and and then when women do find their confidence, they're judged as being bolshy, aggressive and so forth. So you know, women are in an impossible Double Bind, and it makes it even harder when people assume that things are further along. And I have to say, I worked in a lot, I work in lots of different sectors and and I will get your take on whether or not this is, this is accurate. I do think that the danger of sometimes the creative in the marketing industries is the sense of, Well, we're all good people, we're nice people, and we're not like that, and yet, at the top, it still is very much. There's a big gap, and I'm hearing on so many panels the number of women who are struggling and facing bias and so forth. So in a way, I work also in legal sectors, in very male dominated industries, sometimes that's better because they're aware that it's usually biased and it's male dominated. I mean, look, there's so many stats out there. I was speaking to someone yesterday, and I think the current, current stats are around about 60% but it's actually due to rise that the buying power within most households and the people that are making the decisions on what what we buy is mainly women. So 60% I think it's supposed to rise to something like 72% or expected to rise to about 72% in the next two years. Yet, on most advertising boards, marketing boards, it's still men that are making the decisions to how to design the online journeys, how to advertise their products and services to a female audience when they don't really understand the female audience. So it doesn't make sense. It's still not equal. We're getting there. I did also get some positive stats where I looked at female CMOS actually said 51% of CMOs are now women. Whether that's true or not, I don't know. So I literally was googling stats before I came here. Like, what's happening? Like, where are we? So some of it seems like it's getting better, but, you know, listening to all the things that we listen to, and also just from personal experience and the life that I live, I know there is still a way to go before we get that gender, gender parity. It's, it's, you know, we're a way off. Um, so what I want to know is, and I know Stephanie, you've got some quite radical, different views about this. What you think we should do to start to get to that more equal, you know, equity within within business as a whole? Well, I'm hoping it's not too radical, but it is possibly a little counterintuitive, because I believe that we won't reach gender equality by focusing only on women. Now, of course, everything I've just said would lead us to believe that that's absolutely what we should be doing. And I still coach women. I run programs for women. So yes, there is a need to do it, but that is not enough, and it isn't what women actually need. Because we started off, if you think about it, companies started off by going, Okay, we need to support women, let's run some confidence programs and presentation skills programs. And it was all around women having to do more fixing women. And then we all started to realize, actually, that's a huge burden to place on us, to single handedly, be pulling ourselves up through systems that are keeping us down and keeping us. Suppressed and experiencing bias. So then there's been a shift, rightly, to also looking at the system. So when I say systems, I'm thinking about changing policies, like introducing flexible working policies and having better maternity leave and making sure that there's biases taken out of recruitment processes. And that's really important, so that the two go hand in hand. But actually that isn't enough, because you may have the best maternity leave possible policy in the world or the best new menopause policy, but if is, if that policy is operated, was being put in place within a culture that isn't really, truly reinforcing it and supporting it. It's really hard for that to gain any kind of traction. So in my research, there were some women who were saying, Great, we've got a menopause policy, but my manager is really uncomfortable having those conversations. So we need everyone in the company, you can't just focus on the women. You have to focus on everyone and making sure that everyone else is also endorsing supporting these policies and these initiatives so that women can take advantage of them. So we need active male allies. And for me, allyship. I know you talk about male activists, and I believe when we talk about male allyship, it is, and I'm not the I didn't come up with this. This is many people say this, but allyship is a verb, not a noun, right? It's about those everyday moments and really making sure that this doesn't just be a It's not just a woman's thing. And you can go a step further to say that we need you know, if you introduce a flexible working policy, we need men to be taking advantage of that, because otherwise it's still a woman's thing, and women will still face some kind of penalty for taking advantage of that and for taking the time out. But if men are also asking to take advantage of flexible working, then it starts to normalize it within the culture. So we really companies need to be thinking about everyone being supportive of things. So that's one key factor. I love, that it's so true like the same goes. Like, you know, whether you're a woman, man, you know, however you identify. I think the same goes for, you know, any kind of flexible working, like the men should have flexible working, the women should have flexible working, the mums should have flexible working. The people that have decided not to have children or can't have children, should have flexible working. It shouldn't, you know, I think often part time is like you're a parent, so you need part time work. In fact, it's not even a parent. If you're a mom, you need part time work. Actually, if people choose and design, want to design their life around having part time work or doing job shares, we need to make work more flexible, like you say, for everyone, because then it's not just, oh, this is for working mums. Yeah, exactly you know what's interesting. So I was part of the UK UN Women's delegation to the UN's Committee on the Status of Women this year. I know that's a lot of words. I think I've seen it because I know a couple of other women, yeah, on that have been involved with that. Yeah. So basically every year the UN comes together, all countries come together with delegations to look at the status of women. And so as part of that I was, you know, attending various sessions. I remember attending one by the run by the Nordic countries, who are the absolute Trailblazers when it comes to really gender balanced initiatives. And you know, what's really fascinating, they have the most progressive parental leave policies in the world. And yet, at the top of corporate leadership, there's still not gender representation. In fact, they've got a gap that's not dissimilar to the UK. And I sat there and thought, Wow. I thought, I thought that was going to be one of the things that was going to fix things. So I think this is reinforcing this point, like you need more than the policies. Something else needs to happen. So what else needs to happen? Well, Stephanie, you have all the answers. I'm like, Stephanie, just tell us. I'll do my best. I like it. So the other thing we need to be aware of, and one of the other reasons why we can't just focus on women, is the fact that we have been is creating a backlash. And I don't know if you've seen some of this, but Ipsos has been doing surveys for the past few years, and what they have found is a very interesting paradox, where, and this is not just UK based, it is, it is global. This this research, 68% of people believe and recognise that we don't have equality between men and women, 68% and yet, 54% think that we have gone too far with women's rights, and the majority of those are surprisingly Gen Z and millennials. Who believe that actually it's even to the point that it's discriminating against men. So whether or not that is valid or true, that is what people are feeling. And I don't think we can simply ignore that. And I know there's some people that would be like, you know, I roll and be like, well, that's ridiculous. And push even harder, but I think we need to listen to that and recognise there's something about how we're approaching things that isn't landing, and if people are feeling that way, they're going to react. And I'm seeing that pushback in the work that I do, where I'll be having conversations with the talent team or the learning and development team saying, Hey, we really want to run this program for women, but we can't, because we're getting pushed back internally, and men are saying, well, what about us? Well, I say, Well, that's what about them every other personal development or professional development leadership program in the company, but fine. And what that means is they're shying away from running important initiatives so women miss out. And the other thing is, actually, the reality is men are not thriving under these systems either. So back to what we were saying before. If you think about Yes, men should be taking advantage of flexible working policies. But you know what happens when they apply currently, they get turned down more often than women do. Wow. So you know that women, women obviously have big needs, but so do men, and I think we need to pay attention to that and make sure those needs are taken care of. I don't know if have you ever seen the gender equity diagram that's often used where you've got people looking over a wall. Oh, so basically it's a typical kind of diversity image. So you basically have people standing behind a wall, you have the man standing on the ground, and he can see over the wall. And then you've got the next one up, which would be a woman, she's on a box so that she can also see over the wall, and then you have another group of people, bigger box, and it's about that's what gender equity is, making sure that people are given what they need to see over the wall or to overcome the barriers. But the men, men don't have any box at all. And I'm like, well, actually, is that is that true? Is that fair? Yeah. So I think for organizations, we need to really be thinking about an even more inclusive approach, so that men also feel that their their needs are, which may not be to the same order of magnitude as women, but they're taken care of, and that we have gender allyship, which is multi directional, so not just male allyship or male activism. Gender allyship, yeah, I love that across the board. Yeah, it's not about us, it's not about them, it's all of us together. It's policies for everyone. Yeah, it's inclusive, not exclusive, yeah, yeah. Amazing. Stephanie, is there anything that I've missed? I feel like there was so much that we've covered. There is one more thing that, yes, okay, yes please. And this is maybe a bit controversial. So the third reason why it's not good to just focus on women is we don't want to be recreating systems of dominance of one group, favoritism and priority over one group rather than another. And I think, I think about, I don't know, did you watch the Barbie movie? Yeah, I love the Barbie movie. So I love what it rep with. Because I wasn't going into that movie. I obviously went with my daughter, who you've met, yeah, um, I didn't go into that movie expecting the impact that it delivered to me in terms of the inequalities and how it was showing Ken, you know that, you know, men ruled the world, in the real world, in his world. You know, Barbies ruled the world. So I thought the impact that had on me, my daughter, like it was like, just wow. But anyway, you're gonna tell me something different about it that maybe I didn't realize. Probably, well, I also really enjoyed it. I thought it was a really clever way to unpack the issues, but I think they missed a trick, and at the end, I was left with a slightly bitter taste in my mouth. Oh, go on. Because if you think about what happened at the end, when the women and the Barbies get back into power, there's one moment where the Kens ask to also be able to have, effectively, a place at the table and the Barbies reclaim her power and say no. And at that point, I went, Oh, that was an opportunity. You're so right. I had not even thought total opportunities. Like, okay, so then we're just doing the same in reverse. So we need to actually shift the paradigm and move beyond this idea that one group is favored over another and yeah, and recreate something new and make sure that no one is being dominated. Because the truth is with gender equality, equality, with what? Equality with a whole system that effectively was built to favor men or a certain type of men, white, neurotypical. All heterosexual men with a wife at home. So do as women, do we really want to get equality within those systems, or do we want to change the systems altogether for something better? Yeah, now I love that. I wish I'd thought of that. Yeah, the women are in power, but you're so right. What would that would have been such a beautiful ending? I mean, there are a few little things that are slightly off, like, you know, obviously they do have the white, gray haired, you know, boardroom of men, and then they dumb them all down and pretend that they're all stupid. And a bit like, there's some things that the movie got wrong, which, you know, is done in a comical way. But I think you're, you're so right if they'd ended on that. I mean, as well, I thought you were going to get her gynae checkup, which I did think was really funny, but no, I think you're so right. What we all need to fight for Barbie included, is yes, gender equality there is no, I would say not equality, because equality has us at the same level, in the same systems. So from I have a philosophy on this. So I think we need to move beyond gender equality, beyond gender equity. And what we actually need the new paradigm, the new system, the new approach, is what I call gender harmony. I love this, and gender harmony is where everyone is respected, appreciated, supported, and given what they need to thrive, regardless of gender, all genders included, that doesn't mean we can't take care of the equitable needs, but that overarching primary motivation is, let us all ensure that everyone is thriving. And this is at once a vision of the world. I mean, imagine a world where difference is celebrated, where it's not the thing that divides us, it unites us. It's not the thing that holds us back, it's what propels us forward. And that's what gender harm is, the vision of it is, but it's also a practical approach to help us get there. So I'm developing principles, looking for collaborators to to to ensure that this is our starting point on our framework and the umbrella that we're operating under. So I'm really excited about that, and maybe we can do a collab on it. Yeah, I love that. If there's any way I can help, I was going to say, guys, if you're listening and you want to get involved, I will make sure all of Stephanie's contact details are in the show notes. If you don't mind, yeah, email LinkedIn so that you can contact Stephanie and, yeah, get involved and help. Yeah, move the dial on this so that we can create this gender harmony. Yeah. And if I can say one final thought, I think this is really important, like for your audience and for your listeners, it's recognising that creative, advertising, marketing industries have such power and opportunity to shape culture, to be the trailblazers, and to not only ensure that within their own organizations this is happening, but then that ripple effect so that's happening within their clients, that it's happening with the advertising campaigns that affect effectively influence society. You are the culture shapers, and so I really hope that anyone listening to this really feels that and takes that responsibility on board and imbues the work that you do with that, with that lens so true, we have the power amazing. Thank you, Stephanie, you're so welcome. Thank you. Thanks guys for listening. Hey guys, me again. I hope you enjoyed the episode that you've just listened to, and if you did, I'm going to do the you know, The annoying thing that all podcasters do, which is go and ask you to subscribe, because it really does make a difference to our rankings, and please do go subscribe, leave a comment, give us a five star review. If you did love it, if you want to get in touch, do check out the email address in the show notes. Most importantly, again, if you're on YouTube, please subscribe by clicking the button somewhere that is on this screen, and it'll mean you get notified when new episodes go live.