Marketing in the Madness

The Importance of Relationships in Marketing with Contentful's EMEA Field Marketing Lead, Laura Thornley #42

• Street Agency • Episode 42

Share episode

Send us a text

Harnessing sales and marketing collaboration is the linchpin of success in any forward-thinking business, yet many still struggle to fuse these pivotal teams effectively… This week's episode is your blueprint to ensure you're not among them.

We're diving deep into the art of leveraging your sales team to supercharge your marketing efforts with Laura Thornley, EMEA Field Marketing Leader at Contentful. As a seasoned leader and advocate for strategic sales and marketing collaboration, Laura knows that true understanding between these departments can radically transform customer engagement and drive targeted outcomes. 🤝

And by mastering this sales and marketing collaboration, you will see your business grow in ways you never imagined…

In this week’s episode of our podcast, Laura joins us to explore the vital principles of cultivating a dynamic relationship between sales and marketing: From integrating sales insights to refine marketing strategies, to nurturing a culture where both teams are aligned in their goals—it's a treasure trove of wisdom and practical advice on building a cohesive powerhouse.
 

In this episode, you’ll discover:

🚀 How close sales and marketing collaboration can lead to more insightful customer understanding and significantly more effective campaigns.

👥 Strategies for building strong, enduring relationships within your teams to foster an environment of mutual trust and goal achievement.

🖌 Techniques for leveraging sales insights to tailor marketing materials that resonate deeply with target demographics.

🔗 The importance of relationship-building in crafting a united front that drives both sales and marketing towards common objectives.

💡 Leadership insights from Laura on how fostering this partnership can create a cycle of continuous improvement and innovation.

So, if you’re ready to elevate your business and create an environment where both sales and marketing teams thrive together, tune into this essential episode now to unlock the strategies you need to succeed, believe us, it's not to be missed.


📢 Don’t forget to LIKE & SUBSCRIBE to keep up-to-date with future releases. And if you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a review and share it with your network. Your support helps us reach more people and continue to share insights into the current market.

 

Links & references

 Laura Thornley

https://www.linkedin.com/in/lau-thornley/

 Contentful

https://www.contentful.com/

Connect with Katie Street:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/katiestreet/
https://www.instagram.com/streetmate/

Follow Street Agency:
https://street.agency/
https://www.instagram.com/street.agency/
https://www.linkedin.com/company/streetagency/


The most important thing for me is relationship building. It's conversations. It's asking them, what are we doing for you? What's working? What's not? Relationship building, to me, it's strategic. It's the magic ingredient in the special sauce. The reality is. If you can't build relationships internally and be seen as that friend and that ally, how on earth are you going to get ahead? You do not get the results unless people can buy into your story. Through our customers, they really help advocate on, on our behalf in, and why work harder when you can work smarter. The importance of being able to get those allies, build those internal relationships are going to help If you can't do that, you can't be a good marketer. Recently I got some feedback that was quite triggering. That feedback was, you guys don't know our customer. It's hard to take. Leaning into your sales force and using them. When you're coming up with ideas and when you're rolling out campaigns, it's just going to be the magical wand that you need. I think the world's changed now. Looking at a kind of multi disciplinary, multi tactic, multi channel approach that pulls your customers in by telling stories, that's often where the real magic happens. Hey guys, and welcome to another, what will always be amazing episode of Marketing in the Madness. Now, today, well I have, I feel like we're like sisters in, sisters in marketing. The lovely Laura, not only has actually previously been a client of mine, um, but leads field marketing at Contentful, and has Probably one of the most similar views to me on marketing and in anyone I've ever met or been lucky enough to interview on this podcast. So welcome Laura. Thank you very much. I'm very very excited to be here. I'm excited to have you because we're gonna delve into something. Well, we're gonna get straight into it today guys I'm gonna get Laura to give us a bit of the potted history of Laura's career but pre that I just want to kind of Frame today's episode because we're going to talk about the importance of relationships when it comes to marketing. Now, if you haven't listened before, hi, by the way, I'm Katie, the host for this podcast, but the importance of relationships to me is huge when it comes to marketing, because effectively that's what you're trying to do when it comes to marketing. So marketing for me, and I know you feel the same because that's exactly what we're going to talk about today is all about relationships. What we're trying to do. When we deliver marketing is build relationships with an audience that we, you know, ideally want to pull into the fold and Help build a relationship with that's going to be positive hopefully for both parties. So it's about creating relationships that matter creating relationships around You know the things that we can help our audience with which effectively let's hope if the match is right They're going to become a potential client customer, whatever it might be. So that's what we're going to delve into today Before we do that I just wanted you to frame, frame Laura and tell us a little bit about your career before we start talking about the importance of relationships and you know, why you're so passionate about that. Okay. So yeah, great to be here. My marketing experience spans 16 years I think, so, uh, went into marketing straight at university, always kind of had an interest in the area, um, and yeah, straight out of uni worked in the. The property sector, fitness, and then moved to the world of agency at where I stayed for a long time, actually. And, and I feel that that's really kind of shaped me. I've taken so much from that time. So I did 12 years in a customer marketing agency that specifically focused on advocate, uh, marketing. So I started off as an account executive, worked my way up to an account director where I managed accounts across, um, the tech world. Um, HP, Salesforce, and some, you know, real estate. Really great brands where I could spin multiple plates and really immerse myself into the world of, of tech marketing. And following that, um, I'm currently at Contentful. So lead the film marketing team there. The kind of excitement there is really, I think I was just at that stage of my career of wanting to fully immerse myself into one brand and move from that multiple hats that I'm sure you understand as a, as an agency founder. And yeah, just, just throw myself into that one brand and use all of that experience across, um, the tech space to try and make an impact. So that's what's led me to today. Yeah. And here we are. And we're going to be talking about exactly that now at one of Contentful's larger internal events. You won an award recently. Can you tell us what you won an award for? I did, yes. So I won the FY24 Friend and Ally to the Field Award. The awards for outside of the sales organisation, voted for by the settlers, so I think, you know, it was Yeah, being quite honest, humblebrag moment, a real high point. It was exactly what I've been trying to achieve, um, you know, just become that friend, uh, to actively listen to what our sellers need, um, and to try and problem solve for them. So yeah, it was a, it was a, Really nice moment to receive that award and I've got the nice class. Um, yeah, I remember you putting on LinkedIn and yeah, I think we're going to talk about this as well later about, you know, how being a woman in the world of business. Sometimes you're like, you know, That friend and allyship, it almost feels like the fluffier part of our role. And therefore not as important or not as worthy an award, but like, you know, not something that traditionally people think is important to be awarded. But I mean, that's what the whole podcast is going to be around today is Truly, the reality is if you can't build relationships internally and be seen as that friend and that ally, how on earth are you going to get ahead with, you know, getting the stakeholders that you need on board internally to make the magic happen and make the change happen, which I think that's what I kind of, you know, having worked with you, I see you as is this real change maker and someone that can Bring the rest of the business with you, get them on side because that is such an important skill and one that maybe I haven't spoken about enough on the podcast before is, you know, the importance of being able to. Get those allies, build those internal relationships are going to help you get ahead and do the things that you want to do because you need, you need that support. So tell me a little bit about, I guess, how you've done that. Not just at, you know, you've obviously been recognized for it at Contentful, but how you've done that in your career and the importance of you doing that in your career to get to where you've got to and to be able to make the impactful changes that you've been able to make. Relationship building to me. It's strategic. You know, I think you've just summed it up beautifully. We need it. It's like the it's the magic ingredient in the special sauce. I believe I'll tell you a story. Actually, let's go back because I've not always felt that. And I think that You know, I've come a long way just in terms of age. I think you start to lean in a bit more to your skill set, but also experience, you know, seeing that, Oh my gosh, this actually works. So back in my agency days, we get the opportunity once a year and it was like under thirties, I think maybe 10 spots almost felt like the apprentice to apply for something called the chime innovate board. And it, It's a really fantastic initiative. Actually, I just went all out. I think, you know, maybe about 27 at that point. And I was like, I'm gonna go for this. So it's 12 months executive experience essentially. So you get mentored by a member of the board. You get the opportunity to, you know, come together once a month and strategize on ways to, you know, help the agency. I was really fortunate. So, um, I applied, I got on and I was actually mentored by the now female CEO, an amazing woman. And yeah, lots that I learned from that. But day one, uh, that are kind of initiation or, um, icebreaker session was that we were, we were actually sent StrengthsFinder. So it's StrengthsFinder 2. 0. They kind of call it the talent DNA. Um, so it's talking about leaning into that skill set rather than looking at frailties or, you know, What are our strategic skills and how can you use them to, you know, make you successful in business? You read the book, you do the quiz, you know, we've all seen them. But this is really, you know, it's a deep dive. And I think there's around 34 character traits, I believe. And I think there's four different sections that these fit into. So one of them is relationship building. The other one is strategic thinking. I think the other one's executing, and I always get this one wrong. It could be like analytical or I don't know, something like that. So no surprise, I'm sat here talking about relationship building. Yeah, out of my top five, it was extremely heavy. I think four of them were relationship building. One was in strategic thinking. And interestingly, I've actually done it twice in my career. And I think, The top four have always remained the same. The fifth has been interchangeable. And I think that's just experience. However, yeah, mine were relationship building. And that day, Katie, I may as well have walked in with a pink feather bow around my neck. That's how I felt. I felt like not only was I, you know, the only northerner in the room, I was also, you know, Coming in with this skill set, which I was like, Oh my gosh, I'm an imposter. I shouldn't be here. Like, you know, I'm not a strategist and, you know, I think some of them were like competitor, achiever, and we were going around the table. We sat around the boardroom and the internal narrative was you do not deserve a seat at this table. What are you doing? How have you walked into this? You know, you're going to get found out. And I couldn't see that actually, you know, strengths of empathy, harmony, you know, communication, positivity, woo, they're all such amazing skills. And actually, I wish I could go back to that 20 something and be like, hold on, girl, it's gonna get better for you. You lean in fully to those traits and don't try and be the achiever and the competitor and the analyst because, you know, it will serve you well. I hope I never forget that moment. And, you know, moving on from that. It took me a while to really embrace those skills. I think I tried to kind of almost dole myself down a little bit and think, Oh gosh, what, what good is harmony in business? How is that going to make me a better marketer? You know, how, how can positivity be something that's going to, you know, create great campaigns, for example, but actually I have fully leaned into that. And now those are the things that are bringing the winds, you know, within marketing. My working week, the most important thing for me is relationship building. It's conversations, it's speaking to your salesforce, it's asking them what are we doing for you? What's working, what's not, you know, it's all of that great stuff. Um, so yeah, hopefully that answers your question, but as you can tell, you know, relationship building for me, I'm, I'm super passionate about, and I just wish that I had that insight at that earlier age, um, and that earlier stage of my career. Yeah, I'm so with you on that, by the way, because I think we're probably quite similar in that I felt exactly the same when I was younger, I would, I was very, I'm actually now. So I've done more of the Myers Briggs and the color insights. Well, have you done the colors thing? So I used to come out yellow, red. Because I think yellow is the relationship, the where is now. Because I'm older and a bit more long in the tooth, I'm red yellow. But I, I mean, I think I was always, it was, I'm red and yellow, like, through and through. So red is the more kind of dominant leadership. I don't even know if it's about being strategic, but like, I have my opinions and I'm very confident in delivering them. And the yellow is the Empathy. Not empathy. It's, I think empathy is green actually, but it's more about the kind of, you know, the ability to kind of be very social and very, you know, the importance of, you know, that to me back then was I knew that I was, you know, the motivator in the room, the, the, you know, the friendly person, the kind of fluffy, excitable person that maybe brought You know, focused in on the relationships and I never really understood the same as you in my mid, late and early 20s, the importance of that when it came to delivering and getting people on side and, you know, internally getting the buy in for the, you know, ideas that I had. Because if you can't do that, You can't be a good marketeer. You've got to be able to market yourself and your ideas internally as well as then, you know, create those ideas and, you know, build those relationships externally through your marketing. So I think understanding that anyone who's listening, having heard, you know, what you, I think that's super inspiring and it kind of sets the tone for probably everything we're going to talk about today. You've started to highlight in there though something that I am very passionate about and it's the relationship between sales and marketing. So, You know, it goes back to, it goes back to relationships, of course, and being able to form those relationships, but understanding and listening to the salespeople to create better. I mean, the amount of times, especially in tech companies, and I'm sure you've experienced this at places that you've worked with, and maybe even in your current, you know, in current environment. But I think so many times sales and marketing are looked at independently and there is no togetherness. I hear this from my brother a lot. He works, he's worked at lots of huge, huge tech companies. I won't name all of them, but he feels like there's such a disconnect. He's like the marketing team aren't delivering the things I need as a salesperson to go to market with any strength or even warm leads. Like he's still, he's still having to cold call because He's not being delivered from his marketing team. What he believes is, you know, the lead generating content and tactics that are going to help him with his outreach or even help start those relationships. So he's having to do it cold. So I think what you're bringing in your current role is a real connection between sales and marketing. So talk to me about, you know, I guess how you're doing that, your ethos and what it is that you wanted to try and do. As I say, it kind of starts and ends with, with those relationships. So active listening, you know, trying to dig into. Like, what does a seller's day to day look like? You know, I'm in marketing. I get excited by the big brands and the Hollywood productions and they work, you know, like they work at a certain point in the funnel. We need to kind of highlight that. However, some of the most impactful things that I've created have been like those one sliders, those summary slides of challenge, solution, benefit, and they slot them into their presentations and hunky dory, easy lift for us. It delivers for them. But I guess, you know. That kind of listening piece. We've got to rather than just, you know, rolling campaigns out and expecting them to be on board with it and, you know, kind of communicating this too late, what we're really trying to do is listen to our sellers and, you know, have a few champions within the business that we can bring into the fold and bring into the ideation process so that, you know, You know, it's not falling on deaf ears, you know, because there's frustrations on both sides. You know, I think as, as marketeers, we're like, come on guys, come on, you know, we've done all of this now execute. So we can't expect them to do that if they're not on board from the very beginning. So I guess it's, you know, communicate, over communicate, say the same thing. I'll honestly, I think that. Our sellers get sick of me hearing my voice, you know, we have pod meetings and, you know, present to the sales leadership and often it's the same thing, but I always kind of feel that that means you're doing something right, you know, if you're communicating the same message over and over again, you know, it goes in and we're not kind of jumping from one thing to the next. It's not random acts of marketing. It's repeatable stuff. So Communicating with them, letting them know what's coming up and you know, you can then bring them into that conversation. I recently had a conversation actually with our BDR team and got some great feedback that I've been translating assets into into local language and they were like, actually, Thanks, but we don't use that and I've pivoted, you know, so now we're looking at well actually customer stories are more impactful So, how can we quickly get a few of those out so that we can really support them? So it helps us to not randomly do stuff that they're not going to use and so yeah over communicate Listen to them really tap into to their knowledge as well because you know, these guys are smart They're sat there in front of the customer, day in, day out. I think, you know, recently I got some feedback that was quite triggering, because I think that's the other thing we can do. Ask for feedback. How are we doing? You know, let's not be arrogant and assume that, you know, we're the world's best marketing team and we're doing everything for our, for our sellers. You know, there's always room for improvement. So ask those triggering questions of what are we doing right? Where can we, you know, where can we be better? And yeah, that feedback was, you guys don't know our customer. That's hard to take. It's really, really hard. It's a tough pill to swallow hearing that, but the reality of the situation is I'm not sat having coffee with them. You know, I'm not on the phone to them day in, day out. So leaning into your Salesforce and, and, you know, using them when you, when you're coming up with ideas and when you're rolling out campaigns is just going to be, you know, the magical one that you need to pull together and do something really impactful. I love that. It's so simple, but so often forgotten and not done. So can we talk about the practicalities of that? You talked about things like pods. How are you building those relationships and gaining that knowledge from your sales teams? What kind of things can our lovely listeners do to really start to build those bridges and, and, and focus on understanding, you know, the needs of your audience a bit better via your sales team? Weekly meetings, joining them, listening to what's going on. And that could be. I sit in like the quarterly business reviews and, you know, some people might think, well, it's really dull and I'll go and present at them. But actually I want to sit around that table and, and listen to the challenges because actually you can go away and then think, ah, okay, well, I've heard that this is happening in the Nordic region. Can we pivot strategy? I think in EMEA, what I find is that it's not a one size fits all approach. You know, we've got, we've got cultural nuances. I can be very general here, but you know, how I find it at Contemptful is, You know, particular regions are great at the running events. You know, they want, they want to be out there. They want to be mixing with their customers. They want that kind of intimate approach. Other regions, they want me to go, here you go. Here's a platter of net new logos, you know, where they've not had to do that kind of, um, that grind of inviting our sales teams are busy, you know, they don't, they need us to kind of lighten the load, being involved in those conversations, hearing about, you know, you want to hear about, Sales pipeline, how it's going so that you can start to really challenge yourself and go, okay, things are not looking so good. What can we do is, you know, a quick win, you know, what, what's the low hanging fruit so that we can support them. So I think just immersing yourself fully, you know, if you can go and have coffee with them, that's what I'll be doing later on today, you know, meeting one of our sellers. And it's all about that, you know, relationship building, knowing what's going on in their world as well. I think it's really important and wider than just work, you know, I think sometimes it's just great to kind of. Like what makes them tick? What's going on at home? You know, like how can I make your life a little bit easier? So yeah, just get yourself into the seller's world. And I think once you've done that, you know, you also Signal to them that I'm open. So you'll find people coming to you with new ideas and you know Great opportunities to to really do some cool and interesting things that you might not even thought about So yeah, that would be my advice Yeah, they are the door to your customer knowledge. They, like you say, they do. The sales people have the conversations that we in marketing don't have. So if you're not talking to your sales people, you're losing such a huge amount of knowledge about your customers that would be so easy for you to gather just by interviewing and talking to them. Talking and having coffee, not interview, interviewing sounds is too formal. That's not what we want to do, but having conversations with your sales team and bringing them into the funnel earlier, because they'll, they'll be able to help you create better marketing tactics because they know what their customers want and need right now. Right. And no one wants a disengaged sales force. No, you know, ultimately we're putting big money into campaigns and, you know, a lot of time and resource. The last thing you want to do is kind of fall at the last hurdle because these are the people that we're expecting to go out and execute on this stuff as well. So, yeah, it's hugely important that I think possibly the most important and the most forgotten thing. If more tech companies can learn from what you've just said and bring the salespeople into the development of those marketing strategies, That shift change in terms of the amount of opportunities it will create because one, you'll be able to develop better strategies that are talking better to the needs of your audience, but two, you've got an engaged sales force that are then going to run with those opportunities because they've Felt included and you know, they've been part of that journey with you and they want to follow up on those leads in a more, you know, engaged way. Absolutely. And we can, you know, we can go off data. We can say, well, you know, this asset's really performing well. So more of that, please. But actually it's about anecdotal feedback as well. I think that's really important. You know, recently did, um, you know, collected some customer stories to fit into one of our integrated campaigns. And, you know, I was looking at. Which are performing the best, but actually it was having that conversation with the BDR team that really shifted it because it was like, well, okay, we're getting eyes on these assets, but these are the conversation starters. So these are the ones that you want to include, you know, so it's, it's, it's, it's just like digging that little bit deeper. Um, and I think, you know, it starts and ends with the sales team. Yeah, and with relationships, that's what it's all about. If you don't have that relationship, you can't, you can't even get started. I'm always inquisitive to know, like in the current market, I think there's been a lot of change recently. You know, the world of marketing is ever changing, but I think in the world of B2B marketing, gone are the days of, you know, cold calling, you know, flats. Kind of, you know, fairly boring email campaigns. What kind of content and campaigns are really working for you guys right now? What are the campaigns that you're working on that you can really see? Yeah, this is, this is the kind of marketing that we need to be doing to, to gather more opportunities. I think it kind of sparks my brain onto that whole B2B shift. And I know you've covered this on a previous podcast about it's, you know, it's no longer B2B, it's B2Human. It's those campaigns that Really resonate with people because we're not marketing to bricks and mortar. You know, when we think of like a business, we think of like a, you know, a physical entity. What we forget is these people are like you and I, they, they, you know, they're humans that are triggered by emotions and storytelling. And, you know, they, they sit and scroll Instagram. They're just normal people. So, you know, when you create these campaigns, we've got to think about that. We've got to think about, well, okay. What? Are there pain points? You know, what's the headache and how can we fix that? How can we be the medication for that headache? I think, for me, I'm always going to lean on to the customer storytelling piece because I did like 12 years in, in that realm. But it works and, and I'm, you know, bringing that into a lot of the field activities as well. You know, I always kind of think of it of, You wouldn't go and book holiday and spend a few thousand pounds without checking out like, well, what does everyone else have to say about this place? You know, what are the reviews? What are people, you know, what was the food like? You know, you, you dig deep, you dig deep. And that's, that's just for, you know, perhaps a few thousand pounds. However, if you are a CTO or a CMO about to make tens or hundreds or even millions of dollars worth of investment, you know, you're going to look, you're going to, What's the evidence, you know, what are my peers in my particular industry sector as well, what are they saying about this, you know, campaigns that bring in that customer evidence are the things that are going to really turn the needle and then not just, I'm not just talking customer stories, you know, they're great bringing them into the fold when it comes to events. So again, this is the relationship piece again, because you're only going to get that if you've built solid relationships with your customers and they're going to advocate on your behalf. So those, those whole campaigns where you've got the collateral. Which, you know, customer stories is always going to be a big part of that, but also ending with, you know, events where you've got, we did one recently with one of our great customers where, you know, he sat there in a fireside chat, a huge trade show in Germany. And honestly, you just kind of think job done, job done. What are we even here for? Yeah, because he's selling for us. So it's those campaigns that I think, uh, really beneficial. Also, you know, recently we're kind of looking at more verticalized campaigns and making sure that we that our journey when we're nurturing our prospects is solid, you know, and well thought out. So it's not just we, you know, we do events and then we throw them into an email nurture sequence and you know, there's nothing of substance. It's actually, we've got verticalized campaigns where, you know, I'm thinking from a field perspective as well. Well, Let's make sure that our events and we had, we had this discussion earlier today, didn't we, where they're impactful, you know, Yes, they're a bit niche. And I think initially we freak out and we think like, Oh my gosh, how am I going to fill the room? Because, you know, it's my, my net isn't wide enough, but actually having a wide net is not a good thing because there's no pull for someone to come to that. Why would you take four hours out of your day and travel to something that you're like, well, what's the value add? What am I going to get out of that? So I think, you know, just really connecting the dots is, is, is the key. You know, it's like, okay, well, what's You know, what kind of collateral are we creating? What events are we doing? And do they all tie in? You know, what trade shows are we showing up to as well? So yeah, I think it's a very long winded answer, but that's kind of where my head is at the moment of just making sure that we are always kind of tying into those campaigns. Yeah, it covers all the things that I, that I want to do. So you've answered everything in the way that I would exactly advise our clients to deliver those campaigns. I think that's, you know, that's why I was looking forward to doing this podcast today. I just want to map in on one thing that you say that I think is really important. Certainly the event side of things. Now, obviously we, that's what we've worked on together, like delivering these kinds of events, but I think so many people go to, you know, they go to these trade shows. In fact, I went to a trade, I went to the retail trade show. Tech show last week and we're speaking to someone who's exhibiting there and it's really hard if you've paid for a big stand to get the value out of it. If you haven't got those customer success stories, the only time, you know, I've done a lot of these events throughout my career pre delivering them for clients, you know, where we'd gone and we'd invested in these huge shows, spending tens of thousands of pounds at showing up, you do not. Get the results unless people can buy into your story. So it's all well and good people meeting people on the stand, but. Where the real magic happens for me every single time, and I'm sure you'll empathize with this where you've kind of have already, is when you're on stage with a customer talking about what you've been able to achieve together through your technology and your journey together, that's when everyone comes to the stand afterward. I mean, I've done those kinds of events. We've told the story on stage and then afterwards we've had people queuing up at our stand to go, okay, you did that for, I think one we did with was that sheet. With, well, I won't, I won't name the brands, but the I, well, I'll name the customer. I think it was for the fa, we'd done like this huge, huge, major kind of digital transformation project. And then after we told the story, we told what we were able to achieve, how we did it, how we used the different technologies to empower the FA to get further, faster. And literally we had people queuing at the stands with RFPs afterwards because we told the story they could connect with the person, they could understand how that helped them. In their role, because I think what people often forget to do is so whether you're doing that, I think the world's changing out. It's not just, you know, I think actually delivering your own events is often more impactful than just going to the big trade shows, but looking at a kind of multidisciplinary multi tactic multi channel approach that pulls your customers in or potential customers in by telling stories about how you've helped other people solve similar problems, that's. Often where the ma real magic happens. Hugely. Hugely, yeah. And like I say, spent the last 12 years working on that. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it, it's powerful. Yeah, right. You know, you, you don't, you don't wanna make random decisions. And I think also it, it's about that like connecting with, you know, with your kind of ideal customer as well. The way to do that is by telling human stories. I think gone are the days of the whole stuffy boardroom, like corporate videos. People wanna hear. You know, real stories and, and, you know, resonate to it. I think, you know, I'm totally in agreement. And as I say, you know, we've, we've done that with our trade shows where we've made sure that as often as possible, we get that speaking opportunity because I think, you know, we've got a huge story to tell. And through our customers, they really, you know, help advocate on that. On our behalf in and why work harder when you can work smarter? Yeah, and then you're creating tactics and things that you push out in your go to market strategy that you're building relationships outside. So I think, you know what you've, the story you've told today is beautiful because it's about how The relationships you create internally power the relationships you're able to develop externally because that's what marketing is all about. Effectively, you're building relationships with your potential future customers. So if you can't, if you can't develop the right tactics and the right touch points within your marketing to nurture people to build relate, you know, you want to, you want your prospects to feel like they know you. So well, you know, they know your product, they know how you can help them so well before they even pick up the phone or not necessarily the phone, email, inquire, whatever it might be. However, they, they start that conversation with your salesperson, whoever it might be, they feel that they've already got a relationship with you. And that's the key. That's the challenge in delivering really good marketing. Absolutely. Yep. Couldn't agree more. And I think, you know, it goes further than those internal relationships, as I've touched on, you know, using your customers as advocates. I think you've got to also see the whole, well, what's in it for me, you know, piece because actually, um, yes, you know, customers can, can sell on our behalf and that's great, but actually there's, I've had many conversations with, with a number of customers, whether it's, it's kind of a personal branding piece for them. Yeah. I want to speak more. Great. Let's use them. You know, the CMO here at this place, you know, is on a, on a real kind of mission to have her voice be heard a little bit more so you can really tap into that. So, you know, I think understanding what's the personal driver really helps. And the same with sales, actually, I think understanding for them, you know, that, as I say, they're busy. So break it down. What's in it for me? You know, that's what people want to know. Like, Yes, they they want to be on on the whole kind of corporate train of like, you know, banging the drum. Yeah, this is our mission. But actually, what's in it for me individually as a seller, how will I benefit from doing X, Y, Z? So I think, you know, that kind of goes back to that advice piece on how can you make that relationship work for you? I think understanding that, like the personal motivators behind it, you know, from a customer standpoint, well, this, you know, this is an opportunity to really elevate your brand and to partner with a an equally Great brand, and it's almost a bit of free marketing for you from a sales perspective, you know, again, it could be that it could be an internal driver of, Hey, you know, I see myself as a VP of sales one day. So to do that, you know, you need to work with marketing and, uh, you know, and help on on these events and you'll get there through doing that. So I think it's that, you know, just tapping in when you, when you scratch the surface of various relationships, you can kind of really understand. Like, what's that driver? What makes that person tick? Sounds very manipulative, doesn't it? Oh my goodness! I think that's the key, is you've got to talk to the, to the needs of the person. Again, in B2B marketing, we think so much about the business, the business, the business, what the business needs, but You're talking to a person who is trying to help that business get to that end goal. So you've got to talk to the person and the things you can help that and it isn't manipulative because the reality is You're genuinely not going to try and sell something to someone that isn't going to help them because that sale is not going to go Very far if you do that If you try and sell a product or a service or whatever it might be to someone that doesn't really need it No, no decent sales person's ever gonna do that Try and do that because it's going to be a very short relationship and it's not going to work and it's not going to help you tell your story and they're not going to be a good customer advocate. So you're only going to really try and sell something that's going to help them achieve their goals, both in their career, in their job and for their business. So, you know, don't think of it as being being manipulative. Think of it as being really helpful. It is. It's extremely helpful. Yeah, yeah, I'm all for it. Yeah. My last question, Laura, before we move on to the next. Part of the podcast, which is, well, just as important. It's going to be around how females can get ahead in their career. I think what you have really dialed in on today is the importance of those internal marketing relationships that will help you get ahead. So if you've got a couple of tips for our lovely listeners, what would they be when it comes to? Developing those internal relationships that are going to power the external marketing. Yeah. So first and foremost, I would say book some time out, um, with different levels within the organization, because I think they can give you a really unique perspective. So ask them about their day to day, you know, what does it involve? What does it look like? What is marketing doing for you right now? That's helping. And actually. The challenging stuff as well. What are we not getting quite right? What can we change? How can we make your life easier? How can we take the headache away? I think, you know, that that's always gonna be my first go to. Um, and actually I challenged myself with that sometimes because naturally you get busy without taking a breath. And actually I think it's important to just take a step back, go back to the team and say, okay, we've done this over the last couple of months. How is it for you? As a sales team. Um, I think the next piece of advice as well is like the mentorship piece. There's always going to be people within the organization, not even in the same department as you, you know, that are willing to give you advice and to, to listen, to just put you on, on the right track. There's a few people without actually throughout my whole career, I've always had that. Um, and I think it started with that. experience of being on that board and having that mentorship from the CEO. I've always tried to find that, that not even one person, actually, I've got a couple here that one formally as a formal mentor, and then there's others that I just go to for advice. And I think that that's great. You know, building those relationships means that you can go to them with the challenging stuff. They can, you know, Use their experience to put your head back on and quite, you know, let's be honest, we all need that sometimes, but also to look to them and to, you know, really help accelerate your career. I think those relationships are always going to help you because they're going to be a large voice in a room when you're not in it. And they will always advocate on your behalf. So I think, you know, those two pieces of advice I will continue to take with me in my career and I think would be really beneficial. And I think it's something that I wish I leaned into a little bit earlier in my career. Things would have perhaps been a bit less clunky when I first was first getting going, especially, you know, within the sales organization. Yeah. Oh, I love that, Laura. Such practical advice as well. Guys, I hope you've enjoyed. Today's episode. I certainly have. I mean, I just always love talking to you. Um, so we are now going to end this episode. Um, and Laura and I are going to stay here and we're going to talk about how we can all as people and businesses help women get ahead in their career. And I know Laura has got some really practical advice and some things that we wish we'd told ourselves, maybe in our 20s that I know, um, Our younger listeners will find really, really helpful. So big thank you, Laura. Thank you so much. Um, we're going to stay online. If you found today's episode helpful, insightful, interesting, and you want to hear more from Laura, then please do make sure you subscribe and tune back in next week, where we'll be talking about how we can all help empower women to create more, well, I guess, better workplaces. So whether you're a man or a woman, we need you to come back and listen next week.